Kyon: Big Damn Hero:

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Err... Tsuruya's family is descended from Minamoto no Yorimitsu, I think. Not Miyamoto Musashi.

Amusingly, Wikipedia mentions that Usui Sadamitsu/Taira no Tadamichi is female on one of the pages linking to their article and then refers to them with a male pronoun on the page itself.

edited 25th Feb '11 12:26:15 PM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
1327 Silver25th Feb 2011 12:27:24 PM from under a sandstone rock
[up]I was thinking that Keiichi marrying into the family might still get Kyon involved somehow.

And Kyon's mother being alive during the whole bloody June, I hadn't thought of that, and it could definitely affect things.

Hey, random brainwave here. What if Kyon's mother does know about Keiichi's harem? We only know for certain that Kyon's dad was surprised when he thought Kyon was teling him that Keiichi and Mion were sleeping on the side, and we haven't heard Kyon's mother's interpretation of the Higurashi crowd's lifestyle. That could just mean that Kyon's mother hasn't told his father about it.
That doesn't affect Watanagashi so much, though. Might explain the general aversion...

Kyon having a blood link to Hanyuu would be strange and pretty much inexplicable. Well, not inexplicable, merely strange. How many possible ways can we come up with that it could happen?

edited 25th Feb '11 12:30:36 PM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
Won't know 'til we try, right?
Well, let's start with the simplest: a substantial time before Higurashi, maybe even Hanyuu's daughter's children's time, the family split into two, with one part moving away for whatever reason. Come Showa 58  *, their descendants are back.
Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
1331 MadKitsu25th Feb 2011 12:38:44 PM from Somewhere , Relationship Status: Mu
Why do I need a title again?
...damn it, I got ninja'd by the forum system (it jumped to another page and I didn't realize it)...

And Kyon being linked to Hanyuu... Would it be possible for Nonoko to be linked to Hanyuu as well, if this is true?
I have returned, and my vacation in the void was so boring...
That depends on how Kyon's related, doesn't it?

Here's the most... bizarre possibility.

She shifted in her seat slightly and continued, "I didn't do anything, though ... what could I? Keiichi was nearly sixteen years old, and I was just eleven. A year later I had begun to grow, but Mion achieved peace with herself and started to earnestly pursue him. And ... I almost ruined things for her." The woman looked genuinely ashamed, and Haruhi tried to imagine what it could have been like. "For all of us."

"Wouldn't that mean," she asked hesitantly, "that ... you weren't even as old as Matsuri-chan...?"

Rika almost ruined things but it doesn't specify when, only that she started in... oh, 1984. Kyon was born a decade after that, if my memory's right and Haruhi is in 2010, with K:BDH being this year.

"I'll spare you the details," Rika added. "Suffice to say that through carefully placed words and judiciously ignoring sound advice, I ... convinced Keiichi to spend more time with me. It was ... extremely selfish. And I cost almost all of us happiness. It was only on the verge of utter ruin, with the help of my friends, that I realized what a mistake I was making.

"And it's the grandest fortune that things hadn't gotten to the point where the damage could never be undone. As much as I loved Keiichi, and as ... careless as I was with it, the bond that I shared with the others was still there. I didn't have to be selfish. I was motivated to try and steal him for myself because I was afraid of being alone.

Oh, and things became messy.

"Even though.... Well, couldn't you have just acted as though you and Keiichi were drifting apart and avoided that?" Haruhi wondered aloud. "I mean ... if this started when you were just twelve ... you couldn't have married before sixteen, even back then, right? Surely it didn't drag on for four years!"

"No, it didn't," Rika admitted. "But by the time we were old enough, Satoko and Rena had already established a very solid, logical plan that fit with appearances in the minds of others. I don't doubt that some in the village suspect, but we hardly care about that, anymore. If we had it to do over again, I would probably want Keiichi married to Mion." She shrugged, giving a faint smile. "But, perhaps that is guilt speaking.

Timescale involved in this one doesn't work out, unless it's set a few years earlier than that. Say... 2004ish.

The first light novel came out June 6 2003. With that as the case, it's entirely plausible that Kyon's mother... isn't.

Fifteen year old orphans aren't likely to make the best mothers ever, not with absolutely no source of income.

edited 25th Feb '11 12:51:47 PM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
1333 MadKitsu25th Feb 2011 12:52:54 PM from Somewhere , Relationship Status: Mu
Why do I need a title again?
...perhaps Rika and Hanyuu blessed Kyon and Nonoko at some point, creating a link. Not a blood link, per say, but close enough, I think. Hanyuu is a god, and Rika a miko, after all...

edited 25th Feb '11 12:55:02 PM by MadKitsu

I have returned, and my vacation in the void was so boring...
"I thought that this was a relic of your great grandfather, from the war.... Well, it seems it was actually much older than that. I couldn't really guess how old, though."

Interesting phrasing there. Could be completely innocent but it might not be. Kyon's father does explicitly say your great grandfather, not my grandfather.

So, to conclude this long-winded and quite perplexing WMG: Rika isn't Kyon's aunt and Keichii isn't his uncle. Somewhat closer than that.

Which would be a noticeable cause for estrangement, getting given a child. Maybe it was thought Yuuto or her were infertile, only to be proved wrong later on?

Continuing the weird conjecture, the reason Kyon's mother doesn't want him to be there at Watanagashi is because that's when he'd be told, if his birthday and the festival coincide once every two decades/seventeen years, or something like that was used as a date to tell him. And his mother doesn't want him to know. Or something.

edited 25th Feb '11 1:01:04 PM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
Departing from the world of WM Gs for a minute, I was reading the latest chapter and thought of something: When Kyon announced to Haruhi that he was John Smith, did he do that of his own free will, or was it automatic programming Haruhi instilled into him for when he became too overloaded? (I mean when he re-announced it to her after she and Tsuruya told him about the Tenchi Solution)

I can see it as going both ways, and I don't think Haruhi would have messed around with Kyon's behavior that much, but the way she phrases it, it seems like it might be a programmed, automatic response.

I can also see Kyon as choosing to do it then for the same reason that he states in this chapter, and the reason I gave before: he wanted to see what her real self would think of it.
1336 MadKitsu25th Feb 2011 01:06:57 PM from Somewhere , Relationship Status: Mu
Why do I need a title again?
Interesting phrasing there. Could be completely innocent but it might not be. Kyon's father does explicitly say your great grandfather, not my grandfather.

Wouldn't that just mean that, at best, the object in question is a relic from around the age of Taira no Tadamichi?

@thedarkfreak: Perhaps it's both? Wouldn't surprise me.

On another note, since the next chapter will be discussing the fate of Asakura (or Achakura, as the case may be), any thoughts on what will happen to her?

edited 25th Feb '11 1:11:59 PM by MadKitsu

I have returned, and my vacation in the void was so boring...
She nodded decisively, then opened her eyes. "B...because I trust you, I'm going to try not to remember this when I wake up," she added. "And ... you can tell me you're John Smith again if you need me to know everything, for some reason." He was standing close to her, one hand on her desk as he peered at her intently.

I think it's meant to be voluntary. Kyon just panicked.

Another, far shorter, WMG: Closed Space!Haruhi is the amalgamation of her powers, her original personality, and the memetic link and control it grants her.

[up]It's probably a family heirloom or something, there was other stuff with it. It might just be that that's who it's most recently been passed down from.

I think the beginning implies that Haruhi and Yuki removed her murderousness.

"I had no idea!" Kyon protested. "It suddenly showed up last night...." He trailed off and squinted. "Well, no ... in retrospect I think I remember seeing it in the pile of things that we got from my grandfather.... I didn't know what it was then — and I still don't!"

Well, we know where it came from. And that the relic has been part of a family with a suspiciously appropriate family name for a while.

That, when combined with the WMG it's part of  *, would mean Kyon's related to her through marriage and adoption rather than blood but that's still enough to ally the two families again, I'd suppose. And even without the ancestral relationship, it probably would've gone ahead. So... no harm done.

edited 25th Feb '11 1:24:47 PM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
Congrats, Daze, you got the 1337 post in this thread.
I noticed.

Now... any comments on that WMG?
Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
@Kitsu: Yeah, Asakura's definitely still alive. She's just going to turn nice.

If you mean the Kyon-is-the-child-of-Rika-and-Keiichi WMG, it's completely insane, and yet can fit in with the current storyline quite well. I like it!

I suppose the only way we could get a definitive answer on this one is to figure out exactly how far away from 1983 that K:BDH takes place.

If you meant the Haruhi one, that's pretty much what I've been assuming that Closed Space!Haruhi is.

I wonder who the "very familiar woman" who took the picture of the group at the restaurant is.

edited 25th Feb '11 3:00:44 PM by thedarkfreak

I noticed that the Haruhi WMG page, back when I read it, considered that Haruhi's probably set in 2010 because Tanabata would then be on 7/7/07. But if we assume it's set in the year that Melancholy was published... K:BDH would therefore be 2004 and the maths works out, especially if Kyon's mother was between Keichii and Rika in age but too irrelevant to the plot to show up.

Also amusing that I finally came up with a WMG that fits, even if it's insane.

I'd assume that the Haruhi in the previous Closed Space incident was the real one, with the password-locked one being a later creation.

Oh, and judging by Koizumi's lack of reaction... the Espers, since they're no longer linked to Haruhi, don't have any idea if the world's about to be remade or not.

What restaurant? Oh, you mean the one in the chapter? I think I may have assumed that it's Shinobu.

edited 25th Feb '11 3:09:18 PM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
1342 MarqFJA25th Feb 2011 03:09:52 PM from Saudi Arabia , Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
One vision, one purpose
Don't have anything meaningful to add to the WMG stuff, but as for Miyamoto's aforementioned opponent.... It's Sasaki Kojirou.
Where there is Distress, therein lies a Story. Where there is a Story, therein lies a Will. Where there is a Will, therein lies a Soul.
@Daze: Hmm, I think I assumed it was Shinobu at first, as well. It wouldn't be too weird for her to be there, considering Tsuruya-sama owns the place, but why wouldn't Haruhi have recognized her? Hasn't she been at Tsuruya's place more than Kyon?

Hmm, so Safe Mode!Haruhi is just another facet of her, and not the original Haruhi of the first Closed Space?

Also, I'm pretty sure it's only Koizumi who had his connection to Haruhi severed. I'm pretty sure the rest of the Organization would have flipped shit if all their Espers suddenly lost their connections with Haruhi. Still, I do wonder if Koizumi's gotten a call from them yet. If this WAS actually Closed Space, anyway. It may have been another dimension that's similar to CS. Considering the dangers of CS, I don't think Haruhi would have opened one just to let her true self talk to Kyon privately. Plus, I think Yuki would be able to recognize when Kyon was in Closed Space, and all she said was "[they're] no longer in this reality." That could still fit Closed Space, but considering her connection to Haruhi, I'm absolutely certain that she'd know if it was created.
There is no real Haruhi, they're both real - divergent personalities. The main-world one is if she toned down the Tsun half of Tsundere a little, the Closed Space Haruhi if she bore the weight of nigh omnipotence constantly.

Mori was there, I think, or maybe Arakawa. Or both. They would have known in advance.

It's a grey world. Only Kyon and Haruhi are there. None of the giant blue things  *, thankfully, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. With the power to do pretty much anything at your fingertips, keeping them absent is presumably not a difficult task.

Oh, and I added the above WMG to the page, expanded a little, and hopefully clarified.
Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
Didn't Kyon mention a waitress that looked really familiar in one chapter? I think that waitress worked at a cafe, but I'm not certain.
@Betatrack: That waitress was probably Emiri Kimidori. He did the same thing in canon; he thought she looked familiar, but didn't realize who she was until he took a good look at her.
1347 MadKitsu25th Feb 2011 08:43:20 PM from Somewhere , Relationship Status: Mu
Why do I need a title again?
@Rainy Daze: I read your WMG, and raise you another one, right under it. Any thoughts?

@Marq: Thanks for the correction, Marq.
I have returned, and my vacation in the void was so boring...
Well, that theory makes even less sense than the one above it. Doesn't explain the estrangement, why Watanagashi, or what Rika did, either.

And, to answer the points on the WMG page...

About the 2011 thing: I think it's only Tsuruya's records that are fully dated, right? It might just be an error in recording or when a copy was made. Or something. Grasping at straws but it's better than just pretending they don't exist... since, after Yuki's poetry, they're the document most likely to be hanging around.

As for Rika screwing up when 12, I read that as when she started pursuing Keichii, with the Big Damn Mistake capable of having happened anywhere from there to before she was 16.

Mion's daughter - my memory's too hazy, I'll check the chapters once I have time  *. But the 'whilst Kyon's in junior high' thing requires that she's two years older than him, if she quit education earlier than normal. Which would be... 1985, and still plausible. <—- I'll deal with the odd-relationship thing later.

As for Mion's not helping... maybe they just wanted to keep him with family or something and didn't ask? Or see below.

Okay, I've checked and all that seems to be said is that she eloped whilst Kyon was in Junior High  * and that she was older than him. What I'd say is that Mion didn't sleep with anyone else. Rika just got Keichii to keep quiet. That might explain why Mion didn't offer any help...

And the more problems there are, the stronger the Power of Friendship is.

"File K:3419.8.19/2011.4.21"

"File K:3453.3.5/2011.4.22"

"File K:3419.8.19/2011.4.25"

"File K:3453.3.1/2011.4.17"

"File K:3419.8.19/2011.5.20"
I understand that the file differences are adult and teen Mikuru... but why is one where the adult's giving a lesson dated to 2011? The dates might not be entirely trustworthy.

"Snow, Verses: A Compilation" — Committed to record: 2011.4.23

"Snow, Verses: A Compilation" — Comitted to record:2011.5.5

"Snow, Verses: A Compilation" — Committed to record: 2011.5.18

"Snow, Verses: A Compilation" — Committed to record: 2011.5.21

"Snow, Verses: A Compilation" — Committed to record: 2011.6.1
It says committed to record  *, not created. Rather unlikely, though.

"Fragment: Clan Annals (unverified)"

"Entry for 5.11.2011:

"Entry for 5.16.2011:

"Entry for 5.19.2011:
Unverified. Content might be right, date might not.

It does appear to be 2011, though the indication isn't in the story proper  * and some bits of that seem a little suspicious.

I also thought of a way that the date and the WMG could be compatible. There was a timequake or something caused by Haruhi, correct? What if, instead of just blocking time travel beyond a certain point, it messed time and dates up somewhat? Either everything was shifted forwards seven years - putting Higurashi in 1990 - or back seven, with the Fictional Documents showing the real date.

I reread Mikuru's speech. Apparently what happens on one time plane can't affect the others... but from Fujiwara's desires and what Asahina-san big has said, that's far from the case. It's a nice speech, confusing, and completely irrelevant to whether a time-quake could shift time around. Presumably it does, otherwise there'd be no reason to investigate it.

edited 26th Feb '11 8:17:58 AM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
Re: the timeline stuff earlier, the story definitely has a recent setting. Apart from the dated commentaries, Kyon took Yuki and Mikuru to see Scott Pilgrim vs the World. There have been references to other media that are more recent as well.
Warning: Wall of Text ahead!

Kyon's family doesn't celebrate his birthday in the actual date. The only reason I can think about why they are doing that is that something very bad happened on that day. Also, at least for his mother, it's worse if Watanagashi falls on the same day. Another thing that confuses me as well is the reason why Rika told Kyon about the Hinamizawa Syndrome and the Endless June (IIRC she told him that before he told her about the SOS brigade).

What else do we know?

Kyon's cousin (the first daughter of Keiichi and Mion, the one Kyon was in love with) ran away from home years ago and her family doesn't seem too concerned about her whereabouts (with the Sonozaki family's "resources", one would think that it would trivial for them to find her if they wanted to), so they probably know she is OK or they think she is dead or maybe there is some other reason for that.

Probably irrelevant, but there is no single instance where the names Naota or Makoto (Keiichi and Mion's son and daughter) are written with a kanji that contains the radical "Oni" (鬼 : ghost, devil, ogre), so their first daughter must have it (and appointed as the heiress), unless they decided to end the Theme Naming with Mion and Shion's generation. I got this info running several Unix tools (mainly Sed) on the Enamdict dictionary file. For trivia, there is 343 matches for that criteria in female names alone, 251 of them contains the kanji 魅 (fascination, charm, bewitch) and "Mion" (魅音) is one of them.

Kyon's mother is estranged from Rika and Keiichi, especially from Rika, and she doesn't know about Hinamizawa's Tenchi Solution (Rika warned Haruhi about that). Also, she doesn't have a problem with Arranged Marriage and she has some slight controlling tendencies with Kyon but no so much with Nonoko.

Finally, all the Higurashi's cast think that someone should tell Kyon something that he doesn't know, something that her mother in particular doesn't want him to know.

Now, let's cook some WMG with these ingredients:

Kyon's cousin (she is the only one who doesn't get a name) suffered from Hinamizawa Syndrome and attacked Kyon on his birthday (also Watanagashi) some years ago (with his luck she probably used a knife). Higurashi's cast reacted quickly enough, saving his life, but he lost his memories of the attack due to the trauma.

From here there are two possibilities: Kyon's cousin snapped out of the Hinamizawa Syndrome or not. If she didn't, then she is either dead, under treatment like Satoko and Satoshi somewhere, or interned in a medical institution or even jail if she was old enough for that.

Personally, I prefer the other option. She snapped out of the Hinamizawa Syndrome, maybe thanks to Kyon himself (that would explain why his uncles and aunts respect him so much, Rika in particular would be very impressed with that). After the inevitable My God, What Have I Done? moment, she run away from Hinamizawa on her own or she was found by her parent on time, told about the Syndrome and treated.

In any case Kyon was badly hurt, freaking the hell out of his parents, and taken to the hospital. Probably Keiichi and Co. tried their best to keep the circumstances concealed but that engendered suspicions in the mind of Kyon's mother. Rika's behaviour (who can be very calm in critical moments) must had been especially suspicious to her. With the disappearance of Kyon's cousin at that time, the background of the Sonozaki family and the rest of the information available to her, Kyon's mother chalked the incident up to a Yakuza attack targeted to Kyon's cousin resulting in Kyon getting hurt in her defense.

About the outcome of Kyon's cousin, she could leave Hinamizawa because guilt or maybe she actually eloped some time after. There are too little information here.

All that would explain several things about Kyon's mother: her estrangement with Keiichi, her fixation with the girls in Kyon's life, her opposition with Kyon travelling to Hinamizawa on his birthday, her severe reaction at Kyon's (justified in some degree) involvement in school violence and her willingness to arrange his own marriage without even listen to his opinion. Also, that would explain why Kyon's family celebrate his birthday on the wrong date, why Rika told him about her past and Kyon's selective obliviousness to romance (seeing the girl he liked scared to death of him have to linger in some way).
K: I have an idea, but I'm not sure how safe it is.
S: I like it already!

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