Moral Event Horizon cleanup

Erase the second one. Leave the first.

You know...I am thinking on doing a sort of Effort post for this trope.

-Who is the character?

-What was the MEH worthy action?

-How the story treated them after said action?

Keep in mind that this is only if you want add any new example, doing it with the previous ones would be too exhausting.

edited 2nd Jun '18 12:52:52 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country

I've found this on the main page for Heavy Object:

• Moral Event Horizon:
  • An in-universe example. Qwenthur agonizes over taking the lives of the soldiers who have captured Milinda, until they start talking about dragging her back to base behind their Object and turning her over to the Interrogators. After raping her, of course. Qwenthur immediately finds the resolve to kill them.
  • Lisa did a lot of things she hated with her unit but they crossed the line when planning to delay their pursuers by spreading landmines in a city to slow their pursuers.

I've cut it, but should I add it back, or leave it the way it is until further discussion?

IPP Wick Check created.

This was added to YMMV.My Hero Academia:

• Some fans think Bakugo crossed it in the very first chapter/episode he appeared in, when he burns blasts Midoriya's hero manual to a crisp and tells him to take a "leap of faith" from the school rooftop" if he wants to find out if he has a quirk so badly.

Midoriya is very quick to forgive him, Bakugo becomes unambiguously heroic, and he hasn't done anything nearly as bad since then (perhaps it can be considered a case of Early-Installment Weirdness).

So that's an automatic cut.

Check out my fanfiction!

Here's an example from the YMMV page for House of Anubis:

Victor, despite having been a sympathetic Anti-Villain in the other seasons, crossed this when he set up a guillotine to stop the students from getting into the secret room. He tested it by having it cut a dictionary in half. And he was very pleased with this. Of course, he was a sinner at this time, so it does make a bit of sense. But it's the first time he's ever shown willingness to murder the students, a jarring change from his former Even Evil Has Standards trait.

The reason I'm contesting this is that Victor, as it mentions, was a sinner at the time- this meaning he'd had his soul removed and was effectively a sociopath. This explains why he went from Even Evil Has Standards to setting up a guillotine of all things. Once his soul was returned to his body, he went back to normal- and even played a heroic role in the Touchstone of Ra movie. The series itself clearly didn't think his actions as a sinner made him irredeemable and with my experience in the fandom, neither do most fans.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

If he went back, he's not qualified.

Check out my fanfiction!

• Moral Event Horizon: Heavily debated, due to heaping amounts of Alternate Character Interpretation over how sympathetic certain characters are and how justifiable or not their actions are.
  • Word of God is that the moment that Walt crossed it is when he refused to let Gretchen and Eliot pay for his treatment and went back to cooking meth instead, letting his pride dictate his judgment rather than take the extremely generous and well-intentioned offer. Among fans and critics, the most common deeds brought up as candidates for the trope are the mentioned money refusal, allowing Jane to die, choosing to continue cooking meth despite achieving his initial monetary goals, arranging and ordering Gale's death, and poisoning Brock.
  • Skyler's shot at this trope could be considered agreeing to help launder Walt's drug money, which some fans feel ruin any claim she has to a moral high ground.
  • Jesse comes close to crossing it when he attempts to peddle meth to his addiction support group, but backs off and later confesses it to them in tears.
  • Gus crosses it when he tells Walt he intends to have Hank killed, and if Walt interferes, Gus will kill him and his entire family.
  • Unassuming Todd crosses this pretty hardcore at the end of his second appearance when he kills a child witness without batting an eye. He stays past the horizon once he kills Andrea in "Granite State" to punish Jesse.
    • Of course, little is known about Todd's background, but he was already an established criminal (albeit a petty one) when he was introduced, and was chummy with his Nazi uncle. Todd could have been as cold-blooded as he was because he was used to it.
  • Hector Salamanca crossed this years ago, killing Gus' business partner and sadistically forcing Gus to watch his dead body bleed out as Don Eladio taunted him.

Yeah needs a cleanup

Since this on Zero The Beginning Of The Coffin had no context, I think I'll put it on the cut list: Hasegawa

IPP Wick Check created.

I've thought about the MEH and I've been bothered by its description. It's states that when a person crosses it, they are irredeemably evil. Ok huge problem, there are some cases where a character might cross it a few times but still have audience sympathy and does have genuine good moments even when crossing, I think it shouldn't state the person is irredeemable, it should mean that the Event is unforgivable. Because saying irredeemably evil means that that person will always be evil even when they don't do anything antagonistic. Like Mrs. Puff for example, yes she try to kill Sponge Bob but one could argue who was the victim there and she still had nice of at least civil moments even after that episode. Another examp!e is squidward, yes he's a jackass and has crossed it a few times but he still has some audience sympathy and not everything he'll do in the future will be evil or antagonistic

Then those entries would be misuse. You can't cross the Moral Event Horizon multiple times; any example stating so needs to be cut.

What about what I said earlier about the MEH description?

Found this example on Love, Simon:

• Moral Event Horizon: Martin brings the worst nightmare of any closeted teen to life when he anonymously and maliciously outs Simon to the entire school after Homecoming. Although he undergoes a Heel Realization and attempts to make up for it, the film makes it clear that the act is not Easily Forgiven.

If MoralEventHorizon is supposed to be where a character crosses the line into irredeemability and to show that the character will always be a bad person, doesn't the character in the above example having a Heel Realization negate the example?

Anyone considering a discussion dates page?

IPP Wick Check created.

I've got one to add for Star vs the Forces of Evil:

"Star comes dangerously close to crossing it in the episode "Game of Flags" where she pushes a family member into the lava in attempt to put her flag on top of the hill, she avoids it thanks to Marco saving the member and her mother stopping her"

Examples aren't "dangerously close to becoming" examples. They either are examples or they aren't.

I'm not sure which one it is

Also, I have a huge problem with the Moral Event Horizon description, it states that that villain or hero is irredeemably "evil". That is wrong and super subjective, it should mean that person's actions are unforgivable and also, some people might disagree with the statement because of aspects like Gray and Gray Morality or Unintentionally Sympathetic where even if they've crossed it some peop!e !ight either sympathize with them because of either context or what they're goals are, the moral event horizon is subjective and therefore should not be taken as completely true

This.

I see it more as being irredeemable as far as the narrative itself is concerned, being an act fans can point to as the point where the character, by the standards of the work, has shown themselves as being truly evil or at least too far gone. It's subjective because people are bound to disagree on what the act is and if said act is truly irredeemable. However, characters like Mrs. Puff who aren't treated in-universe as being evil characters cannot have crossed the MEH because the work itself has to see the character as evil or otherwise irredeemable first.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 26th 2018 at 4:13:57 AM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

So it's been 3 days, any chance I could get a response regarding the example I brought up above?x8

Yes, I think it negates the example. Even though he's not Easily Forgiven, having a Heel Realization means the work still portrays the character as being redeemable.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Super Mario Logan needs some serious looking into. Half of the entries are either just jerk moments than truly irredeemable, and they don't do these crimes in every video.

Okay, so someone added a few new entries to The Simpsons that I think should be cut. Once again, these referring to characters who aren't seen as evil or have done truly awful things. I believe it's misuse, so I'd like some feedback if I should removed them or not.

The first entry refers to "The Crepes of Wrath", the season one episode where Bart is made part of a exchange program and sent to live with some abusive winemakers. I don't think Skinner really knew how bad the place would be and while you could blame him for negligence, it wasn't intentional and Skinner isn't held responsible in the show itself.

The second entry refers to the ending of "The Principal and the Pauper", where the whole thing's played for laughs. And Agnes isn't the only to take the blame, the entire town runs the Real Skinner out of town and it's treated as a mostly happy ending. Again, I really think it's misuse.

Thoughts?

YMMV.The Emoji Movie: This probably doesn't fit and sounds like complaining about the Protagonist-Centered Morality.

• Moral Event Horizon: A completely unintentional one. When the Just Dance app gets deleted along with Akiko Glitter and Hi-5, Gene and Jailbreak go in to rescue Hi-5..... and don't even consider trying to save Akiko, leaving her to likely be erased from existence if Alex ever empties his trash bin. What makes matters worse is that the app is only deleted because of a problem Gene caused.

I have a question about the Ben 10 Reboot: Charmcaster has a Noble Demon and Pet the Dog tropes yet she apparently crosses the Moral Event Horizon in "Charm School's Out" where she disguises Gwen as herself and tricks Ben into killing her, does this null all of her positive qualities and tragic events such as Morningstar's abuse of her and make her forever evil?