should more lgbt characters be introduced in cartoons nowadays?

@Ramidel: Like Iniura said, that wouldn't be mutually exclusive with normalization. The difference would be more how they did it. Specifically, I'd rather have them make a movie where, say, the romance is between the princess and another girl, but the queer aspect isn't the primary point of the plot. There's a difference between a story where the princess is gay, and a story that's about a gay princess.

If the movie has a plot that's specifically driven by the fact that the Princess is gay (i.e. they have to prove to their family that their love is real or whatever), while the message itself might be positive, you're still setting up a situation where where a lesbian relationship is treated as abnormal and is only accepted after being proven or earned, rather than people simply taking it as a regular thing from the outset.

It's a tough balance because on one hand, that's definitely a more realistic take on the subject, since that's how it often plays out in real life, but portraying all relationships in that manner runs into the problem of making it out as abnormal and something that isn't valid unless you prove it or earn it rather than just being accepted like a straight relationship would be.

There are obviously places for both ways of writing it, but personally I think that we could use more works that simply treat it as a normal thing, for a couple of reasons:

1. It keeps the queer elements from becoming a type of plot tumor or overtaking the rest of the character's personality; there are too many LGBT character out there who are only that

2. More importantly, it places the burden of proof on those who oppose it. If you just treat it as something normal, it makes people who get worked up over it look ridiculous due to something innocuous.

3. We already have a lot of the "realist" type of story, to the fact that it's basically considered the default. More variety in how the subject is handled is always a good thing.

But yeah, both ways of handling the subject are valid, but I think that they work differently. I lean more toward the "normalization" route, but both have their place.

You can have a story about a character "who happens to be gay" and a character whose sexuality is of vital importance to the plot. Both are necessary.

Exactly my point only said much more concisely.

I actually had a vague idea that if I ever did do a cartoon (which I'm never gong to, but it's fun to think about), one of the plotlines would've been a fairly standard Valentine's Day "one kid struggles to work up nerve to give valentine to the person they like", with all the requisite shenanigans, only it just so happens that both the kids are the same gender. It wouldn't really be commented on, it would just be there.

edited 3rd Apr '17 8:00:31 AM by JapaneseTeeth

can go in depth on my idea?

Could you elaborate?

well, to explain it more, basically, rob (as I'll call him), is a football player who aspires to become a pop star when he grows up. the problem? he can't sing and when his mouth met the microphone, it was obvious he didn't make the cut. sadden by the events that unfolded, he wishes upon a star to have a better singing voice and by coincidence a spaceship shaped like a star crash lands on earth. he gets out of his room and below and behold, a group of cute aliens step out of the saucer. since they have no other choice to find some way back home, they pick him to retrieve enough energy to refuel their ship back together. in order to do that, he has to get starites, star shaped energy that only appears when people are extremely happy, excited, or pleased.

soon after, they give him a microphone like device that allows to change into various human disguises but he settles on making him a flamboyant pop star. now calling his stage persona ruby glam, he sets off to make more people happy as well as reach up to the stairs to stardom alongside his bestest bffs in the world. also, he deals with the alien's predators, the star eaters along the way.

tl;dr: ben 10 meets jem basically with some Steven universe thrown in for aesthetics.

edited 3rd Apr '17 4:41:00 PM by ewolf2015

I'm down for queer boys and music tbh

I think most people are

That title really needs amending though, its kinda awkward sounding..to hollar or not hmmm

At ewolf2015, its nice idea you got there,beyond that there's not much more I can say in the way of critique without being an ass

edited 3rd Apr '17 4:29:24 PM by Ultimatum

I object to that "We care more about Ants than Endangered Animals". I understand the analogy and I mostly agree with it but we are NOT more caring towards a bug than towards an endangered animal. That part I dont agree.

thank you both.

it was a pretty dumb analogy to be honest. people care about endangered animals because they're nearing to extinction. we don't care about ants because they're numerous. so either way, it doesn't make any sense as analogy.

This is 2017, so I don't think you have much to worry about. I think what you're really asking is how you can make this idea pitch-able, and I think that's better suited to Writer's Block.

But I also feel like asking "should there be more LGBT characters" is a loaded question. "Well yes, there should be!" Good, you agree (echo chamber). "Well, maybe not," why would you say that (cue argument).

There was a game I like called Life Is Strange. It's about a teenage girl named Max who discovers she has the ability to rewind time. She also, not so significantly, discovers she has a subtle-not-subtle crush on her childhood bestie, Chloe. The developers, Dontnod, pitched this game to several publishers and took it off the table because people kept asking for Max to be a male protagonist instead. Finally Square Enix picked it up and let Dontnod make the game they wanted. That's what mattered, finding the right people to work with. I enjoyed the game immensely and it... definitely would have been a less cathartic experience if they'd settled.

It doesn't sound like you have a ready list of contacts in the animation industry (Who here does really?) so a webcomic is probably the best route to go. If not and animation is absolutely your thing, go the AT/Steven Universe route, form a team, make a short, pitch it to Disney (seriously don't pitch anything to CN) or some other animation block, see how far you can get. If you have a solid foundation, a good team, and a good idea - having a lesbian, gay, or whatever gender protagonist shouldn't stop you these days. If it does, look elsewhere, or post about it on tumblr, and I guarantee you there will be support for it.

Kickstarter.

edited 4th Apr '17 6:58:48 AM by Soble

@ Ewolf and Aegis, you both Completely Missing The Point of my analogy as I get, I mean have to use The Legend of Korra as an example again. Dammit.

Makorra Shippers wanted/expected Korra to get back with her ex-boyfriend, Mako, a heterosexual relationship based on Belligerent Sexual Tension which is as dirt-common as an ant in any/all forms of media (especially anime.) Korrasami Shippers (which I became because of the show with no prior interest in shipping anything ever,) wanted but didn't expect Korra to canonically end up with Asami, a same-sex relationship based on friendship intensifying into romantic love, which is as rare as an endangered species.

There's scores of hetero romances (especially of that type) that it's a surplus yet detractors, whether they watched or not, complained (read: heterosexism) of it's existence whether deliberating favoring Makorra or by omission because of it's commonness. I'm reminded of once going through the comments section of Star Darlings where two of the characters engaged in some heartwarming Les Yay yet people were doing the usual "why can't they just be frieeeends?" and "Just because two girls are close doesn't make them gay!" which makes it sound like this happens all the time (yes, I'm channeling the snark of queer women) as these same people 1. Don't give a rat's red ass about any young queer kids that could use the encouragement and 2. Wouldn't/Don't talk about "pure friendship" if the same scenes had a cute boy, which was the exact same Double Standard as Korra and Asami's interractions while all Mako needs to do in the same location (and not even that given the bullshit excuses for his absence at the end of "Venom of the Red Lotus"!) and "OMG THEY'RE GONNA GET BACK TOGETHER SOON, YOU GUYS!"

Makorra happening wouldn't make the average Makorra shipper cry Tears of Joy wouldn't have any sort of long-buried catharsis and wouldn't make anyone think deeply about life or society and any of those shippers upset about the couple not happening has every. other. form of storytelling out there to see the same kind of couple happen again. Queer fans/straight allies can't say that and there's a post by a Latina named Bree previously known as mutant-supremacy and currently Hansolosmother on tumblr that points how queer couples are usually doomed to fail with homophobic parents, suicide and general heartbreak with Korrasami breaking the mold for not only earning a happy ending with Turtleduck Date Nights and whatnot, but also it not being an issue to either one of them about how they feel.

TL;DR Straight couples/characters are as numerous as ants, queer characters/couples aren't, like pandas, but killed off/denied more often and guess which one typically gets more public sympathy while the other is dismissed as "just P.C./SJW/gay agenda."

edited 4th Apr '17 7:57:09 AM by K2Misfit

Reminder that bi folks do not have "heterosexual relationships."

We're bi. We like both, and to suggest otherwise is erasure.

Otherwise your post is totally on point and I agree, especially in seeing canon successful W/W pairings in kids cartoons today.

edited 4th Apr '17 8:15:58 AM by Mr.Badguy

Can I point out that Korra threw that in as a desperate attempt to gain brownie points and no one was told about it till the last second?

Korra's romantic melodrama crap was why that show was as bad as it was. Plain and simple, they did not know how to write a romance.

To clarify, how exactly would you define the term in this insistence? Because as I understand it, if you go by a strict definition of the term "heterosexual" a bisexual person could said to be in a heterosexual relationship and the description would be accurate as long as it's understood not to mean exclusively heterosexual. Or to put it another way, would you say it's accurate to identify a bisexual person as someone who's open to both heterosexual and homosexual relationships?

I haven't seen the show, so I can't really comment on the specifics, but to me it looks like the main sticking point is something like "was the relationship executed well enough to really be worth including?"

Like, on one hand, yeah representation of more LGBT characters is a good thing, but at the same time suddenly inserting a relationship between two characters without adequate buildup or development is bad writing, regardless of representation. I don't know whether this particular case was sufficiently developed though.

edited 4th Apr '17 9:31:10 AM by JapaneseTeeth

They're bi relationships, and bi relationships can be same or opposite sex. Calling them "gay/straight" relationships implies that bisexuals just switch between one or the other, invalidating our identity.

We're a valid sexual identity, not an in-between state.

edited 4th Apr '17 10:03:11 AM by Mr.Badguy

It literally has 30 seconds of screen time. It's like "Cute Easter Egg. You don't get a pat on the back for it though."

I see. How would you describe a situation where, for example, a bisexual person is in a monogamous relationship with an individual who's exclusively homosexual or heterosexual? I'm just curious, because a lot of people use the terminology differently.

edited 4th Apr '17 10:57:06 AM by JapaneseTeeth

I can answer that one. For you, it's bisexual. For them, it's not.

There's no proper answer because it depends who you're referring to specifically. For one, it's a bisexual relationship. For another, it may be a homosexual relationship. And for yet another, it's just a heterosexual relationship. Keep in mind with dating, sometimes not everyone is dating at the same time. I'm dating someone who is dating another person that I'm not dating. Thus, the relationship varies depending the person in question.

A good way to look at it is "it's complicated".

Alright then. Good to know.