Misused: Lethal Joke Item

Brought up in the Image picking thread there's a lot of "misuse" to mean "any absurd/ridiculous weapon that's actually powerful/useful" when the description notes it's actually an apparently useless weapon that becomes powerful only in a specific circumstance."

The former, broader use has become so common I move to redefine the trope to encompass it.

It's pretty obvious, even the current page image is line with the common misuse of "any absurd, but powerful weapon" and that's why it got brought up in image picking.

I COULD, but I think is a blatantly obvious and glaring wiki issue because even the people in image picking thread deemed no misuse because they understood the trope as the common incorrect usage.

edited 19th Mar '17 5:29:44 PM by shoboni

Yeah the description and usage on the page are completely off.

I would say disambig and split the two

• Absurd Useful Weapon: the weapon is absurd but it is damn powerful

Things like Dragon Age Inquisition's Jar of Bees which is literally a Jar of Bees and does a lot of damage. An example on the page itself

• Useful Useless Weapon: useless weapon but if used in a specific way it becomes really good.

The latter fits with things like synergies with other weapons such as in The Binding Of Isaac with items that are absolutely terrible on their own but if you get the right other item then it gets extremely powerful. Also on the page.

edited 19th Mar '17 5:45:01 PM by Memers

It's a counterpart trope to Lethal Joke Character so I assume SOMETHING has to retain the name.

A split to have separate tropes for the original definition and the common misuse might work, though.

The thing it gets misused for would be either Improbable Weapon User or Nerf Arm.

Little big broader than that because it doesn't even HAVE to be a weapon-like thing in the logical sense or have anything to do with the Wielder. It can also encompass things a lot more broad than random junk being picked up and used a weapon.

Mr Toots being a prime example because it's a tiny unicorn shooting laser farts.

edited 19th Mar '17 6:34:06 PM by shoboni

Probably worth to note that Lethal Joke Character used to get lots of misuse too, with many examples were actually Fighting Clown (a character with ridiculous design and/or story, but can be use just as well as other character).

Current description of Lethal Joke Item match with Lethal Joke Character (item ver.), but many examples, including the page image, is Fighting Clown (item ver.).

So if we're going to change description to match examples (personally, I wish not), then it should be renamed into something completely unrelate to Lethal Joke Character, to avoid confusion.

edited 19th Mar '17 8:47:18 PM by Kuruni

I think at this point it's common usage as morphed so much into a completely different trope re-defining to match the misuse is the best option.

Especially since the Trope Decay seems to have been caused by being to narrow in the first place.

I dont like the 'lethal Joke' for either type they often are not jokes

Absurd But Useful Weapon matches more with Fighting Clown, although not exactly the same, its absurd but just as effective if not more effective than other more conventional weapons.

Useless But Sometimes Useful Weapon is comparable to Lethal Joke Character , it sucks normally but depending on the situation and synergies with other items/weapons or whatever it can be a great weapon.

Useless But Sometimes Useful Weapon sounds more along the lines of Not Completely Useless.

That trope is broad as all hell but it would be a subtrope to that I think or a huge rewrite and include item synergies exclude finite consumable items and such as that is another trope.

edited 19th Mar '17 9:05:26 PM by Memers

"any absurd/ridiculous weapon that's actually powerful/useful"

Like I said, Nerf Arm covers it. Redefining this trope into that would make it redundant.

The trope is supposed to be a Joke Item that is surprisingly lethal/useful, just like how Lethal Joke Character is supposed to be Joke Character that is surprisingly lethal/powerful.

No, that trope is 'using a less than lethal item as a weapon that is actually lethal in game cause of mechanics'.

It is a related trope but not the same, It could be an absurd weapon or it might not, it might not be effective at all like it does 1 hp of damage as a challenge weapon, and picking up say a sword fish and stabbing someone is absurd but still would lethal in real life too.

Also 'Joke Weapon' as we use the term and what video games use the term is almost completely different, annoyingly.

edited 20th Mar '17 9:39:10 AM by Memers

"No, that trope is 'using a less than lethal item as a weapon that is actually lethal in game cause of mechanics'.

It is a related trope but not the same, It could be an absurd weapon or it might not, it might not be effective at all like it does 1 hp of damage as a challenge weapon, and picking up say a sword fish and stabbing someone is absurd but still would lethal in real life too."

I don't copy. What are you referring to by "that trope"? Nerf Arm? And not the same as what?

Nerf Arm lacks the Lethal qualifier because Cherry Tapping with a weak weapon also counts.

The trope we're discussing is for when the weapon is absurd AND extremely powerful/effective.

edited 20th Mar '17 2:52:14 PM by shoboni

Nerf Arm is just that, it says in the description: "Any logically less-than-lethal weapon which ends up being otherwise just as effective as its "real" equivalent." It by definition is a subtrope of Improbable Weapon User. Nerf Arm, at least, does say that it can overlap with Lethal Joke Weapon.

If the misuse is too much (i.e about "any absurd/ridiculous weapon that's actually powerful/useful"), this can be simply merged with Nerf Arm, and the actual definition can be tried again in TLP.

Lethal Joke item often transcends "effective" and zooms right into game breaker territory. It also encompasses fantastic objects like Mr Toots while Nerf Arm is mundane.

Something like using a fork or cardboard tube and managing to kick ass with it.

edited 20th Mar '17 7:44:54 PM by shoboni

I think claiming that a problem seems obvious does not satisfy the request for evidence of the problem, such as a Wick Check.

edited 20th Mar '17 11:47:30 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Normally I'd agree but this is so blatantly obvious a wick check would be like checking the pulse on a decapitation victim.

The Image Pickin' thread demonstrated that by everyone assuming the trope meant the common misuse and voting to keep an image in line with it.

Memers has also pointed out a simple glance shows the actual usage and the definition are at odds with each other..

edited 21st Mar '17 9:43:26 PM by shoboni

Y'all want it, fine, misuse form the first folder: First example is one so we're off to a great start

• Action Doom 2: Urban Brawl: One of the strongest melee weapons in the game is a cardboard tube.
• In Angband, a few of the literal Poison Mushrooms can do considerable damage to enemies when thrown at them. (don't get this one, it just seems like a form of obvious poison damage from a Smuck Bait item that can also be consumed)
• In Assassin's Creed II, the broom (or "Doom Broom", in some circles) acquired by bumping store owners holding them was treated as both a sword and a hammer for the purpose of counters. Since all of the counters but the ones that just knock the enemy down are 1-hit kills, the broom becomes laughably powerful. See that elite-looking guard in massive shining armor that dwarfs normal guards' armor? Let him strike at you and then counter, and if you are lucky (as in, not unlucky), you will hit them in the (armored) gut with the soft bristles and proceed to finish them off with an upswing that should merely give your enemy's helmet a dusting. Or, if you are really lucky, you will finish them off by slicing into their neck and pulling it out with a glorious spin. And yes, blood will fly if it is turned on. (counters are deadly with ANY melee weapon to the point of them being an infamous game breaker to AC fans so this isn't that bizarre. So this is also a case of absurd weapon being powerful)
• The Fang in Backyard Baseball. It will always be a ball, but the batter will normally swing at it, resulting in a strike. (this one isn't clear what it's talking about it so might or might be misuse)
• The Baldur's Gate series:
  • A pair of Golden Pantaloons can be found early in the first game, and have no obvious purpose. In the second game, one can also find the Silver Pantaloons and the Bronze Pantaloons as well. If you managed to get all three items, they can be used to create the most powerful armor as well as a couple weapons near the end of Throne of Bhaal, the last add-on. Overall the difference to standard equipment isn't that huge, though; the weapons especially aren't that useful. (this one might even count as self-defeating since it admits the gear isn't that much better than normal stuff and calls the weapons useless)
  • In the second part of Baldurs Gate, you can also learn the spell "Limited Wish", which gives you (depending on your Wisdom) a number of dialogue options to be granted as wishes. If your wisdom score is really low, you may demand to be "protected from undead right now", which summons 6 hostile vampires. Combine this with the fact that evil clerics can control undead of lower level and you got yourself a free army of bloodsuckers (completely ignoring the Arbitrary Headcount Limit). (not sure if that counts or if just a Game-Breaker spell because there's nothing about it seeming worthless or silly)
• In Bayonetta 2, completing all the chapters on 3rd Climax (Hard) unlocks the final weapon: A Chain Chomp. An actual living Chain Chomp straight out of Super Mario Bros. that's chained up to Bayonetta's leg. Crazy as it sounds, it makes for a powerful mix of an Epic Flail that'll smack angels and demons flat and an Angry Guard Dog that'll bite them into submission. (absurd weapon being useful/powerful once again)
• Unlockable only after reaching the highest level of Prestige, the MP44 in Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare is both a Joke Weapon and a Call-Back to the WW 2 roots of the franchise. Players often disregard it, as it can't accept any attachments and it lacks the accuracy of other weapons. However, it is one of the most powerful automatic weapons in the game. With the Stopping Power perk in place, it can kill Juggernauts in three or four shots. (this just straight up seems like a case of Boring, but Practical))

Need I keep going? I'm barely into the "Cs" and barely down the page in the editor and already have this much. there's more misuse that proper use thus far.

edited 25th Mar '17 4:55:57 PM by shoboni

Shoboni, a "wick check" is how it's used on other pages— the wicks. Not the examples on the page. Heavy misuse on the trope page itself is a bad sign, but we also need to know how it's affecting the rest of the wiki.

Please don't feel hard done by because we're not just taking your word for it. These procedures were put in place to so that we can work on the pages thatreally need it, instead of dinking around with every page that someone decides they don't like.

I was unaware allowing a page to remain a burning mess was allowed as long as "it doesn't leak".

That sounds like an ignoring a problem situation.

edited 25th Mar '17 6:03:23 PM by shoboni

That's policy, not for discussion in the TRS proper.

Look, we have limited manpower to actually fix things; I'm sure you've noticed all those TRS threads that have gold stars by them in the thread list. Those are threads that have been decided, but NO-ONE has finished doing the work.

TRS is backlogged and we're trying to change that. But that means that we aren't going to waste time on threads that don't include evidence that the page is actually broken.

]You think this needs fixed. That means it's on you to provide evidence in your Opening Post. That almost always means a wick check.

If you can't or won't make that effort, we'll assume that you dont' really care one way or the other.

edited 25th Mar '17 6:20:08 PM by Madrugada

How is rampant misuse right off the page not evidence?

A page being internally broken and loaded with misuse is still a problem regardless if it leaks and I'm not about to go Rambo on ANY PAGE without discussion and risk getting banned.

edited 25th Mar '17 6:33:05 PM by shoboni