Trump and ROCEJ

There's an Edit War going on over on Kanye West over this example:

• Whether you agree with him or not, his ability to proudly support Donald Trump as the President of the United States, especially in the current political climate, is an awesome moment.
  • Doubly so when he tweeted out that black people don't have to be Democrats.

And another version of this:

• Regardless of what you think of it, Kanye having the balls to proudly support Donald Trump in the current, anti-Trump, political climate.
  • In addition, when he told everyone black people don't have to be democrats, he's responded to all the backlash, a lot of which has been racist with a straight face and hasn't retracted his statement

Delete it completely. Awesome moments pages for creators should be about their work, full stop.

edited 8th Jun '18 6:03:14 AM by Fighteer

~Fighteer It was already deleted, and there was an Ask The Tropers query about it. Septimus added a commented-out notice on that page not to mention Kanye's political stances there again.

YMMV.Metal Wolf Chaos:

• Internet Backdraft: The use of the hashtag #MechAmericaGreatAgain during the E3 2018 announcement has been met with this, mostly by those who are too caught up with the most recent user of the phrase being parodied to realize that Devolver Digital is also taking the piss out of the phrase themselves. This is perhaps the most even-handed description possible.

I cut per ATT as it's stealthy calling them a Fan Dumb for missing that it's parody. Is there any way to acknowledge this without excess ROJEC issues?

edited 12th Jun '18 2:52:23 PM by Ferot_Dreadnaught

Heartwarming.Atop The Fourth Wall

• In his review of Nova Girls: Space 34-24-34, Linkara angrily snaps when HoloHank briefly takes on the appearance of Donald Trump. Normally, this would be a prime opportunity for a Take That!, but he's instead mad that he has to see him in comics too instead of just real life, since he wants his show to entertain his viewers and make them happy, not remind them of the very divided, frustrating political scene that's been causing many Americans a lot of stress since Trump's becoming president.

While I'm not a Trump fan and I feel much of the frustration mentioned, even putting aside ROCEJ, the moment seems to be played more for laughs.

edited 16th Jun '18 9:30:04 AM by costanton11

Yeah, that's shoehorned into Heartwarming. Cut it.

That's not Heartwarming at all. Zap it.

From …But He Sounds Handsome

• Donald Trump's habit of posing as fictional employees who say glowing things about him to the media is so common that there's a whole page about it on The Other Wiki.

Obviously cut.

Trump was re-added to Overshadowed by Controversy, this time as an aversion of all things, with the entry stating that "To his supporters he's always winning." Surely that's not allowed?

Edited by HamburgerTime on Jul 23rd 2018 at 5:19:41 AM

Regardless of ROCEJ, I don't think we list aversions for that trope.

Quotes.Even Evil Has Standards:

"I have never understood Donald Trump’s involvement in wrestling. He is always presented as a face counterpart to Vince McMahon’s evil billionaire character, but the facts tell a different, much darker story. While the wrestling persona Mr. McMahon once made Trish Stratus strip and bark like a dog on television, the real-life Donald Trump once tried to demolish a little old lady’s house and turn it into parking space."

— Wrestlecrap, "Donald Trump Buys Raw: Dropped Almost As Fast As WWE's Stock"

I'm cutting since it's No Real Life Examples, Please!, but I assume ROCEJ is in effect.

On top of those other reasons, I'm not even sure if that quote helps one understand the trope.

There's a clean up forum on the The New '10s, concerning troping real life event, including politics. Some of the misused tropes might violate ROCEJ. Thoughts on this political example:

• Mood Whiplash: Throughout most of 2014 and 2015, most political commentators treated the idea of Donald Trump—a business magnate and former reality TV star with no political experience—becoming President of the United States as ridiculous and comical. Then it gradually became clear that Trump was actually the most popular Republican candidate, while nationwide support for the Democratic front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton was tenuous at best (partly because she was the subject of an FBI investigation at the time). A few controversial incidents later, the general mood surrounding the election shifted from hilarity to outright terror by the time both were finally nominated, with many a newspaper headline proclaiming "Nobody's Laughing Anymore".
  • The rapid mood swing on Election Night particularly stands out. For Trump supporters and conservatives, it was more mild, going from disappointingly waiting for the inevitable Clinton victory to joy and excitement over Trump's win. For the left, this effect was much stronger. Most liberals and progressives came into election night enthusiastic about the idea of the first woman president. Then, as Trump started to win all the major swing states, the mood shifted to nervousness, shock, and ultimately fear and horror. There is no precedent to such a negative reaction by the losing candidate's supporters to the new president-elect. According to The Daily Beast, the idea of Trump as president stopped being funny to many people right around midnight on November 9, 2016.

Mood Whiplash involves a sudden change within one scene, and any real life examples would have to involve a single event to make sense. The first bullet takes place over the course of several years, so it's not an example. A lot of the real life examples on the trope page seem kind of weaksauce too, but they're still less drawn-out than this one.

The second bullet is just troping some person's experience and should definitely be removed.

Here are some more from The New '10s

• Oppressive States of America: Many people (especially the left in general) considered the United States to have become this under the Trump administration, citing its attacks on democratic institutions^note Consistently dismissing independent news outlets such as CNN, MSNBC, The New York Times and The Washington Post among others as "fake news", and repeatedly threatening constitutional crises in regards to the investigation of Russian meddling during the 2016 election, extreme gerrymandering locking out certain districts to Democrats and higher exigences to minority voters, the Abbott v. Perez case declaring the Texan electoral map unfavorable towards black and Hispanic voters., its rollback of Obama-era changes on civil rights^note Among them, the ban of federal funds on abortion, transgender people being barred to serve in the military, "bathroom bills" and "religious freedom" bills, and the D.O.J.'s ruling about the Civil Rights Act not protecting U.S. citizens on grounds of sexual orientation, even bordering on human rights abuse^note With the jailing of undocumented asylum seekers and the D.O.J.'s establishment of a "zero tolerance" policy, separating illegal immigrants from their children, who were taken to internment facilities (some of them described as being worse than the Japanese-American internment camps in WWII). In addition, there are increased amount of Police Brutality against African-Americans in the recent decade.. President Trump soured relations with key democratic allies such as the European Union, Canada, and Mexico^note By imposing tariffs on several foreign-made products, attacking Canadian P.M. Justin Trudeau and constantly threatening to withdraw from NAFTA while praising authoritarian leaders such as Putin, Duterte, and Erdogan (in addition to Trump's failure to mention human rights in the U.S.-North Korean summit in 2018), leading to a withdrawal from the United Nations Human Rights Council over its alleged "anti-Israel" bias during the "zero tolerance" policy controversy.

• Tyrant Takes the Helm: Many people consider Donald Trump's election in 2016 as this.

Oppressive States of America makes it clear that there's a time limit on the trope. Nothing after the civil rights movement of the 1960s counts, so that example needs to be cut regardless of ROCEJ. Also, I think any entry that relies on Weasel Words such as "many people consider X as this" is a Zero Context Example and, at least for the page in question, ought to be removed.

EDITED TO ADD:

I may edit some of these myself, but I don't want to unilaterally make changes. Because this thread is still working on Trump and ROCEJ issues, I'll look for those entries that at least mention Trump.

More troublesome entries relevant to this thread include the following. Though I also wonder whether any of these should be listed, as few if any of them actually mention media and instead try to trope real life people and events.

• Black Shirt: This is listed under NRLEP, for obvious reasons. It should be cut.
• The City vs. the Country: This blames Trump for "a realignment of the political parties to be on cultural lines which further solidified the geographic makeup of the two coalitions." I think this should be revised or cut, as it isn't exactly focused on "tropes in media"...
• Cue the Flying Pigs: This is misuse of the trope, which concerns a common joke that utilizes hyperbole. However, the entry is essentially saying "Many people didn't expect these things to happen."
• Cultural Cringe: This could possibly be revised to focus more on media.
• Democracy Is Flawed: This is a Wall of Text. It's also complaining about Trump's election.
• Easily Forgiven: Tropes can't be subverted in real life. Moreover, it isn't particularly accurate with what happened (Trump didn't have a honeymoon period, sure, but that was partially due to his not encouraging it).
• End of an Age: I'm not sure for all of these entries, but the one about the Brexit vote and Trump's election could stand to be revised. As-is, it's complaining and uses Weasel Words. The same could be said of the Tea Party and Trump entry as well.
• Enemy Mine: Democrats and Republicans aren't really "enemies," and I can't help but think that this entry is misusing the trope.
• Foreign Culture Fetish: The part about it being a "protest against Trump" seems speculative.
• Golden Mean Fallacy: The parenthetical
• Good Old Ways: This could use revision, as it's covering some — what I would consider to be — hot-button topics like the religious freedom vs civil rights debate.
• Hide Your Gays: This seems to be misuse of the trope, possibly coming from its name. It also has similar wording to the Good Old Ways entry, so it wouldn't surprise me if — upon looking at the history — it was the same troper adding this material.
• Reconstruction: This is completely being misused. This is actually a pothole to UsefulNotes.The American Civil War, which is not supposed to be listed in trope lists as it isn't a trope. Moreover, the entry comes off as gibberish.
• Most of what's listed with The '30s, The '40s, and The '50s should just be removed.
• History Repeats: This seems to largely be misuse of the trope, which is essentially "Something happens because it happened before."
• Nazi Hunter: Needs revision. There's a bit of soapboxing here, troping by proxy, and troping RL (e.g. "most Americans say that ... they [ANTIFA] are, based on ideology alone, ''far' morally superior to white supremacists and their presence in Charlottesville was 100% justified").
• La Résistance
• This Means War!: Revision needed, especially the "an undeniable warning sign for the rise of fascism."

As I said, many of these will probably need to be removed simply on the grounds that they're troping RL people or events, but idk wdyt

Edited by WaterBlap on Aug 4th 2018 at 12:29:50 PM

You can bring those points in the Clean up thread as well.

I say cut all of 'em.

From Overshadowed by Controversy

• Donald Trump's remarks towards Mexican illegal immigrants in his opening campaign speech for the 2016 presidential election led to such backlash that it resulted in both the Miss Universe pageant and his show, The Apprentice taken off of NBC. His continued remarks, controversial views, unexpectedly successful election as the President of the United States in 2016, scandal-ridden career, campaign, and presidency, and record low approval rating has resulted in the programs that were once his largest direct contribution to pop culture becoming just mild footnotes in his story.

I think the first sentence is ok since it's about actual creative works. The rest seems unnecessary and maybe not true- I think "overshadowed by the creator becoming president" isn't the same as overshadowed by controversy.

Edited by naturalironist on Aug 7th 2018 at 3:11:59 PM

From Screw the Rules, I Have Money!

• The Donald Trump White House quickly gained infamy for how many people working in the administration or close to the Trump family openly flouting long-held norms and laws about ethics and conflicts of interest all to increase their own pocket books. Trump himself refused to follow the long-held custom of presidents transferring their business assets into a blind trust, and it's been noted how many foreign dignitaries hoping to get favor stay at Trump residents and hotels.

The ROCEJ warning on that page states it's allowed if "the trope is well documented/undisputed", and I don't think anyone would dispute that the Trump administration is involved in that kind of behavior.

Neutrality Backlash

• This seems to be happening to the U.S. health insurance industry as of 2018. While they had initially opposed some aspects of the Affordable Care Act during its trip through Congress a decade earlier that would cost them money in the short term, such as the ban on refusing coverage due to pre-existing conditions, they never explicitly opposed the bill as a whole, realizing that in the long term its insurance subsidies would provide them with a windfall from new customers. ^note  which was, in fact, the idea
  
  But they didn't bank on opposition to Obamacare so vigorous that it would lead to the election of a Republican Congress (and, later, president) that, having realized that it would become popular in the meantime, instead tried to do everything they could to sabotage it ... introducing more and more instability into the health-insurance market, exactly the last thing they wanted.

I think it's still playing out so we can't say, assumes it was the only cause, and it doesn't explain how their inaction caused the backlash. What to do?

Nuke it.