Peggy Sue: One character goes back in time once to fix everything wrong with their life. It's similar to Set Right What Once Went Wrong, but usually more mundane. "Don't take the bus that day because you'll be late to work" instead of "tell the president not to start WWIII." It's a one-time pass back to the past, and is the entire point of the story. Works best with fanfic because readers are expected to already know the plot that is getting fixed.
"Groundhog Day" Loop: One character is sent back in time with no control over it, for a specific period a time, on a loop that will repeat forever until they find the way to fix it. Loop is typically one day, but can be longer or shorter. Remember that the important part here is the loop; it's something that repeats.
There can of course be variants of both, with maybe more than one character getting sent back, or an unstable loop or something, but those are the basics.
Villain Protagonist
^ i agree with those definitions, and i also dont think Groundhog Peggy Sue is a distinct enouh variation to merit its own subtrope. its just two tropes: "Groundhog Day" Loop (looping mental time travel) and Peggy Sue (mental time travel to live your life over)
I like the title "Peggy Sue Plot". Peggy Sue is not just an event in a story, its a specific plot and should be the premise of the whole story, otherwise its just the broader supertrope Mental Time Travel
Friends forevermore
At this point, scrapping GPS is probably the only way to solve this mess. It kills two birds with one stone.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
Shieldage
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm against retiring Groundhog Peggy Sue and moving the content into "Groundhog Day" Loop because I really like the subgenre of time-loop stories dealing with years and lifetimes. I'm afraid that adding them into the 25k words already listed as entries under "Groundhog Day" Loop would mean that they are lost. Stuff with the flavor of despair of Sisyphus
is just hard to come by. The trope description could use some cleaning though...
A subtrope to Mental Time Travel; this character relives their past, and has to choose between a Close-Enough Timeline or Set Right What Once Went Wrong. The mechanic by which they make this choice does not allow them to go back multiple times.This is interesting as it would also easily adapt itself to the plot of the movie which was: Mental Time Travel to the past for a certain amount of time, then Mental Time Travel to the present (or near enough future, depending how long she was in the hospital) - without having to live out the intervening years. That would look a lot better as a mentioned subtrope on a cleaner Peggy Sue page.
That said, Peggy Sue is a popular shorthand tag for fanfic that do involve travelling back over a lifetime, once, with no easy shortcut to a changed present waiting, just The Slow Path. So... Maybe "Type A - The Slow Path" and "Type B - The Snap Back" shown prominently in the page description?
Yes, makes sense that the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode 'Tapestry' would stay on the main Peggy Sue page as a 'plays with' because it fits other than Q sending Picard back a second time.
One story that rates staying as a 'subversion' to the idea of Peggy Sue being Mental Time Travel is Wesleys Mulligan where the protagonist arrives in the past with his future body intact, swaps minds with his younger self, then exiles the 'spare' (young mind in older body) to a safe holding dimension.
Heh, have little issue with Peggy Sue being restricted and the examples being filtered and moved safely elsewhere. Just seems a lot of work. I mean, a full cleaning would also involve sorting through:
o Neon Genesis Evangelion Peggy Sue
Which, er... Have large overlap with Groundhog Peggy Sue and have no matching "Groundhog Day" Loop Fanfic Recs or Groundhog Peggy Sue Fanfic Recs pages set up yet...
In my opinion:
Peggy Sue - Time Travel: Months/Years. Loops: One, with one or two extra allowed as subversions.
"Groundhog Day" Loop - Time Travel: Minutes/Hours/Days, with weeks fitting in as playing with the idea. Loops: Multiple/Unlimited.
Groundhog Peggy Sue - Time Travel: Months/Years. Loops: Multiple/Unlimited.
Going off my description, Puella Magi Madoka Magica with a fixed starting point and Re Zero with a moving one would both be under "Groundhog Day" Loop as they fall under Days (maybe weeks).
The Butterfly Effect and About Time fall under Groundhog Peggy Sue, although the moving starting point that shifts basically at the will of the protagonist, complete with Snap Back to the present gives them a weird flavor in my opinion compared to a bunch of the other entries... Unlike a definite combo like Replay I can see arguments for them appearing on both an unmodified Peggy Sue page and the "Groundhog Day" Loop page and being taken off of the Groundhog Peggy Sue page for filling both tropes and not the subtrope - but that's for the unmodified Peggy Sue page. If the Peggy Sue page is filtered by minimum loops, then Groundhog Peggy Sue is probably still the best place.
Run Lola Run and Next cover multiple loops over Minutes/Hours/Days and should be solidly in "Groundhog Day" Loop.
I'm against Galaxy Quest and Scott Pilgrim vs. The World being in Peggy Sue despite it being a single burst of Mental Time Travel as the time frame is Minutes/Hours. Without a good trope/subtrope name for non-looping short time hiccups to accept them instead, I'm personally for them staying on the main Mental Time Travel page and out of PS, GPS and GDL.
edited 20th Sep '17 12:39:27 AM by Shieldage
Friends forevermore
You misunderstand my point.
If GPS is scrapped, its examples would ideally be moved onto PS, not GDL. This would, of course, require defining PS (the trope) to include repeated time travel, which it is already currently defined as.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Crowner for if the trope is limited to one instance of time travel.
Friends forevermore
Counter-argument: You never provided evidence the trope was intended to be written as one-shot time travel. All you're doing is railroading the trope's definition into something that it's not used as in practice.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
I have provided evidence:
- The Trope Namer, Peggy Sue Got Married has one instance of travel to the past.
- The earliest copy of the page,
presents a description describing a singular chance, and every example has the character(s) going back in time only once.
- From the current description, it's still only describing a singular chance of time travel.
- Found a previous repair thread that utilized "going back to a specific time in your life, on a single occasion" as the definition.
- Found the second thread which established that this site was the source of the term, citing this wikia, which again, is written in the singular.
, is based on "I also contend that the phrase "...gained from living events the first time" was a generalization and was not intended to disqualify cases of repeated time travel."
Your contention is not evidence-based. My argument is supported with evidence.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Friends forevermore
The Trope Namer can't be used to generalize the entire trope.
Let's stop the mudslinging and start figuring out what to do with GPS.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
Attached a crowner for the definition question.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
I'm not generalising the entire trope from the tropenamer. I'm using it as evidence for what is wrong with the current definition.
The current definition restricts the trope to fanfiction, and the tropenamer is clear evidence that the trope should not be limited to that.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Friends forevermore
The crowner could have been worded better, but that's a minor point right now.
Once we've figured out what the trope is, we can resume the renaming discussion (Peggy Sue Plot?) and figure out GPS. One issue at a time.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
Regarding the name, other sites already use "Peggy Sue" to describe this plot. Why fix what isn't broken?
Shieldage
Alright. Let's see. I am against renaming Peggy Sue to Peggy Sue Plot and am for a vote that restricts Peggy Sue to Mental Time Travel jumps that are measured in Month(s) and Year(s).
Considering the length of entries and presence of Fanfic Recs pages I am going to skip over the Fanfic section on each page. I would like to sort out "Groundhog Day" Loop but that feels like a longer project than I have time for today. Here is a database of the current entries on the Peggy Sue and Groundhog Peggy Sue tropes in question sorted by
- Snap Back / Slow Road
- Self-Induced / Unknown / Outside Power
- Complete Recall / Impaired Recall
- Single Jump / Few Jumps / Many Jumps / Apparently Eternal Jumps / Possibly an Infinite Closed Loop
- Seconds & Minutes / Hours / Days & Weeks / Months & Years / Arbitrary Distance in Time
(PS, GPS) are their current locations. (#xx) indicates that I think it probably should be removed from the page and (~xx) raises questions.
Tried to do a decent job. That said, these classifications are slightly arbitrary and definitely need further research in places.
- Snap Back, Self-Induced, Complete Recall, Many Jumps, Months & Years
- The Butterfly Effect (~PS, GPS)
- The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (PS – Inverted as a Flash Forward)
- TV Series That Was Then (GPS)
- Snap Back, Self-Induced, Complete Recall, Many Jumps, Arbitrary Distance in Time
- About Time (~PS)
- Fringe : White Tulip (~PS)
- Ghost Trick (PS)
- Primer (GPS)
- Misfits (GPS)
- Snap Back, Self-Induced, Impaired Recall, Many Jumps, Arbitrary Distance in Time
- Enter the Gungeon (PS) (Roughly once per character)
- Snap Back, Self-Induced, Impaired Recall, Apparently Eternal Jumps, Months & Years
- The short story Spring Fever (GPS)
- Snap Back, Unknown, Complete Recall, Single Jump, Months & Years
- A Distant Neighborhood (PS)
- Peggy Sue Got Married (PS)
- Deuxieme vie◊ ("Second Life") (PS – Inverted as a Flash Forward)
- Kurt Vonnegut's Timequake (PS)
- Felicity (~PS) (Might fit elsewhere? Not sure from description)
- Final Fight One (PS)
- Shadow Hearts: Covenant (PS)
- Snap Back, Outside Power, Complete Recall, Single Jump, Months & Years
- Snap Back, Outside Power, Complete Recall, Few Jumps, Months & Years
- Star Trek: The Next Generation S6E14 "Tapestry" (PS)
- interactive fiction game Tapestry (PS)
- Snap Back, Outside Power, Complete Recall, Many Jumps, Months & Years
- Being Erica (~PS)
- Stargate SG-1 S2 E4 "The Gamekeeper" (~GPS) (Trapped in Short Loop of Simulated Past)
- Snap Back, Outside Power, Impaired Recall, Many Jumps, Months & Years
- Quantum Leap (PS) (Out of the many jumps into other people, Sam jumps into his younger self once)
- Slow Road, Self-Induced, Complete Recall, Single Jump, Seconds & Minutes
- Galaxy Quest (#PS)
- Scott Pilgrim vs. The World (#PS)
- Thief Of Time (#PS)
- Fred Saberhagen's After the Fact (~PS) (The short term Mental Time Travel follows an apparent Outside Power jump that leaves him physically decades in the past before he was born.)
- Slow Road, Self-Induced, Complete Recall, Many Jumps, Seconds & Minutes
- Wizards of Waverly Place (#PS)
- Slow Road, Self-Induced, Complete Recall, Many Jumps, Seconds & Minutes / Hours
- Next (#PS)
- Skin Horse chapter 'Choose' (~GPS) (Might reactivate on his dying of old age, but hopefully not...)
- Slow Road, Self-Induced, Complete Recall, Many Jumps, Days & Weeks
- Puella Magi Madoka Magica (~GPS)
- Undertale (~GPS) (Impaired for One Character)
- Slow Road, Self-Induced, Complete Recall, Many Jumps, Arbitrary Distance in Time
- Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time (#PS)
- Prince of Persia: Warrior Within (PS)
- Sluggy Freelance (PS)
- Homestuck (PS)
- ''The Batman : Seconds" (PS)
- Kagerou Project (GPS)
- Embric of Wulfhammer's Castle (GPS)
- The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (GPS)
- Slow Road, Self-Induced, Impaired Recall, Many Jumps, Hours
- John Buchanan's indie Flash game duo The Freewill Cycle (~GPS)
- Slow Road, Self-Induced, Impaired Recall, Many Jumps, Arbitrary Distance in Time
- Steins;Gate (GPS)
- Slow Road, Unknown, Complete Recall, Single Jump, Hours
- If Only (~PS)
- Slow Road, Unknown, Complete Recall, Single Jump, Months & Years
- Konpeki no Kantai (PS)
- ''The Twilight Zone (1959) : Static" (PS)
- Muv-Luv Alternative (PS)
- Slow Road, Unknown, Complete Recall, Many Jumps, Hours
- Slow Road, Unknown, Complete Recall, Many Jumps, Months & Years
- Shira Oka: Second Chances (~PS, GPS)
- Replay (GPS)
- Slow Road, Unknown, Complete Recall, Apparently Eternal Jumps, Months & Years
- Slow Road, Unknown, Impaired Recall, Single Jump, Days & Weeks
- DisgaeaHourOfDarkness (PS)
- Dragon Quest VI (PS)
- Slow Road, Unknown, Impaired Recall, Few Jumps, Hours
- (Lola Rennt - Run Lola Run) (#PS, ~GPS)
- Slow Road, Unknown, Impaired Recall, Many Jumps, Days
- Umineko: When They Cry (~PS, ~GPS) (Somewhat Metaphorical)
- Slow Road, Unknown, Impaired Recall, Many Jumps, Arbitrary Distance in Time
- Higurashi: When They Cry (~PS, GPS) (Complete Recall for One Character)
- Slow Road, Outside Power, Complete Recall, Single Jump, Hours
- Astro Boy: Omega Factor (~PS)
- Slow Road, Outside Power, Complete Recall, Single Jump, Months & Years
- The Devil In Miss Jones (PS)
- Void Trilogy (PS) (Single Per Character)
- Eureka (PS)
- ''The Twilight Zone (1959) : Of Late I Think Of Cliffordville" (PS)
- Girl Genius (PS)
- Narbonic (PS) (Single Per Character)
- Mighty Max (PS)
- Cinderella IIIA Twist In Time (PS)
- Slow Road, Outside Power, Complete Recall, Many Jumps, Days
- The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (#PS, #GPS) (seems a few days long GDL to me)
- Code Lyoko (~PS)
- Ephemeral Fantasia (~GPS)
- Slow Road, Outside Power, Complete Recall, Many Jumps, Days & Weeks
- GrimGrimoire (~PS)
- Edge of Tomorrow & All You Need Is Kill (~GPS)
- Mother of Learning (GPS)
- Alan Wake's American Nightmare (GPS)
- Amnesia (Otome) Amnesia (GPS) (Might fit elsewhere? Not sure from description)
- Slow Road, Outside Power, Complete Recall, Many Jumps, Months & Years
- Wapsi Square (~PS) (Hopefully not eternal)
- BlazBlue: Calamity Trigger (GPS) (Might fit elsewhere? Not sure from description)
- Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne (GPS) (Hopefully not eternal)
- Slow Road, Outside Power, Complete Recall, Many Jumps, Arbitrary Distance in Time
- Shadow of Destiny (~PS)
- Radiant Historia (~PS) (Might fit elsewhere? Not sure from description)
- Slow Road, Outside Power, Impaired Recall, Single Jump, Months & Years
- Lost (PS) (Nearly the entire cast)
- Mortal Kombat 9 (PS)
- Bastion (PS)
- Neurotically Yours (PS)
- Slow Road, Outside Power, Impaired Recall, Many Jumps, Hours
- Star Trek: The Next Generation S5E18 "Cause and Effect" (#PS) (Probable GDL)
- no-one has to die. (#GPS) (Probable GDL)
- Slow Road, Outside Power, Impaired Recall, Many Jumps, Months & Years
- Shin Mazinger Zero (#PS, GPS)
- The Dark Tower (#PS, GPS)
- Slow Road, Outside Power, Impaired Recall, Apparently Eternal Jumps, Hours
- Fear Itself :The Circle (~PS) (Might fit elsewhere? Not sure from description)
- Slow Road, Outside Power, Impaired Recall, Possibly an Infinite Closed Loop, Months & Years
- The Circle Series (PS)
- Thunderbolts (GPS)
- ?? Into Own Body / At Least A Few Jumps
- Entry on Kaworu Nagisa from Neon Genesis Evangelion (~PS)
- ?? Into Someone Else's Body / Single Jump
- * The Dragon Ball spin-off The Case of Being Reincarnated as Yamcha (~PS)
- ?? Physical Time Travel (probably a subversion) / Slow Road / Single Jump / Months & Years
- Stargate: Continuum (~PS) (Single per Character)
- Drenai (~PS)
- ?? Physical Time Travel (probably a subversion) / Snap Back / Single Jump / Months & Years
- Back to the Future Part II (~PS) (Single For Biff)
- Night Watch (~PS)
- ?? Physical Time Travel (probably a subversion) / Snap Back / Few Jumps / Months & Years
- Red Vs Blue (~PS, #GPS)
- ?? Physical Time Travel (probably a subversion) / Snap Back / Many Jumps / Arbitrary Distance in Time
- The Time Traveler's Wife (GPS)
- ?? Metaphorical
- Going Postal (~PS)
- Peanuts (~PS)
- "I Know Now" from Snoopy!!! The Musical (~PS)
- Knights of the Old Republic (~PS)
- The Adventures of Willy Beamish (~PS)
- Whatever Happened to The Caped Crusader? (~GPS)
Probable voting info - Both of which cover the Trope Namer:
Of the 65 Mental Time Travel Entries listed above on Peggy Sue, 34 are Few or Single. This also covers 5 of the 5 Physical Time Travel (subversion?) entries.
Adding in the 24 that are only on GPS... Of 89 Mental Time Travel Entries listed above, 59 can be measured in Months or Years – as in they include at least one jump that length, no restrictions on also including shorter jumps. This also covers 6 of the 6 Physical Time Travel (subversion?) entries.
Side Note: I find it interesting that there are enough Snap Back and The Slow Path Entries for a probable Version A / Version B heading on the page(s). Any links to an actual Trope that fits 'Snap Back' as seen in Peggy Sue Got Married and The Butterfly Effect?
edited 26th Sep '17 8:45:11 PM by Shieldage
Friends forevermore
The initial time travel being physical is merely a non-example, not a subversion.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
Friends forevermore
Bumping so that a few more people can see the crowner. 5 for/7 against simply isn't enough.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
Locking per New Year Purge.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Crown Description:
Peggy Sue is a trope based on Peggy Sue Got Married, a movie where the protagonist wakes up in her younger body and has the chance to change her life. They only travel back in time once.
New page.
Someone other than myself, Samaritan, or Rallybot should probably get in on this, because we're just going in circles at this point.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.