Opening this and clocking. There were two previous rename threads which didn't go anywhere.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The Unknown
My proposal: Rename to Peggy Sue Plot or Peggy Sue Story or whatever. Makes it clear that it's a story archetype and not a character archetype without removing the main name.
Also agreeing to rewrite the description to remove the Fan Fic trope emphasis.
edited 6th Jan '17 2:41:53 AM by Karxrida
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
- Save Scumming is a video game-specific trope.
- I do not see anything in the description that explicitly says the character undergoing the time travel has only one shot at doing what they want. In fact, I've seen many works* with the time-travelling character repeating the process time after time because for one reason or another their attempt to change history fails, with the common factor being that they always start each reboot with only the extra knowledge/experience they gained, and occasionally whatever innate superpowers and artifact they possessed from the very beginning or gained in previous timelines that survived the timeline-reset.
- Most of them are fanfics, but there's also Puella Magi Madoka Magica in the form of Homura Akemi, where her most recent previous attempt is shown in [[spoiler:the prologue and the rest of the story covers her current attempt, and one flashback episode shows the first three attempts, and it's implied she went through hundreds of attempts by the time the story started.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
The trope is not Time Travel In The Work. It is very clearly a single chance of time travel, you get one save.
- "a Peggy Sue fic gives a character, usually at the end of a story or series, the chance to go back and relive her/his life with the knowledge he gained from living through his story the first time."
- "as the character changes things, the new timeline becomes more and more different from the one he or she left behind... and thus he or she is less and less able to predict what's going to happen next."
- "The trope name comes from the 1986 film Peggy Sue Got Married starring Kathleen Turner and Nicolas Cage, in which Turner's character is able to relive her high school days"
"Groundhog Day" Loop is the trope for "repeating the same time frame multiple times" (and people have decided to split Groundhog Peggy Sue off for time frames larger than a day). That's what Puella Magi Madoka Magica is experiencing. Homura is retrying the same time frame over and over until she gets the "right" ending to her story.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Clock is ticking.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Just for the record, I think simply renaming this trope to either Peggy Sue Plot or Peggy Sue Story (with the remaining title turned into a redirect) is a perfectly reasonable option, and in fact for tropes named after characters, I always prefer a "Character Name X" construction in the absence of better options.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
I can agree with that.
Zzzzzzzzzz
As can I.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
On the subject of anime though Madoka Magica is a Ground Hog Day Loop however the recent Re LIFE is very much a Peggy Sue Story being about "An unemployed man takes a pill that turns him back into a high school student so he can redo his life. "
The Unknown
Here's a rewrite of the description that removes the fanfic emphasis (the changes are largely in the first couple of paragraphs, but I included the entire thing for completeness' sake). I went with Peggy Sue Plot in the first sentence because I thought it sounded better.
It can turn out that they're perpetuating a time loop. Or, less commonly, breaking it.
While this might seem as a recipe for an overly powerful character, the Peggy Sue is not without its risks. Often the only way they made it through the first time was because of fate or luck giving them Plot Armor, a luxury that they will be unlikely to have a second time around, though they can try for Tricked Out Time. They may also have to deal with a weaker and less experienced body, mental baggage, gaps in their knowledge regarding past events, negative reactions by anyone who realizes that they know things they shouldn't, or worst of all, that another, less friendly, individual has also pulled the same stunt. And of course, the primary problem with such a scenario: as the character changes things, the new timeline becomes more and more different from the one he or she left behind... and thus he or she is less and less able to predict what's going to happen next.
The trope name comes from the 1986 film Peggy Sue Got Married starring Kathleen Turner and Nicolas Cage, in which Turner's character is able to relive her high school days. (Of course, the film title, itself, is a Buddy Holly reference.)
It needs to be reiterated: this is not a sister trope or subtrope to Mary Sue, despite the name (and yes, the Sue index causes some confusion here, we know). In the hands of a poor writer, the character can gain Mary Sue-like traits (knowing exactly how everything will happen and thus managing to get a "perfect" result from every scenario, etc) but generally the two do not intersect — if anything the experience is often unpleasant for the character in question. The original Peggy Sue was disoriented and frightened by her experience, for example.
Compare "Groundhog Day" Loop, in which the Mental Time Travel is a repeating short-term loop; for loops which repeat but which are nevertheless on the same scale as a Peggy Sue, see Groundhog Peggy Sue. The video game equivalents are Save Scumming, where the player intentionally loads an earlier save after having gained the knowledge of what is going to happen in the future, and New Game Plus, where the player's character itself retains stats and equipment from a previous playthrough. For characters unexpectedly facing a literal New Game Plus, see Sudden Game Interface. For fanfiction, this trope can follow The Stations of the Canon.
Compare and contrast Yet Another Christmas Carol, "Freaky Friday" Flip, Overnight Age-Up. May resolve as a Close-Enough Timeline. Also, see All Just a Dream, for which this trope is often played as a resolution. For leaps to and visions of the future, see Futureshadowing.
Warning: Possible spoilers
I feel like the third paragraph ("While this might seem as a recipe for an overly powerful character...") is super wordy, but I don't know what to do to condense it. We could also probably remove any Mary Sue references with a name change, but there's probably no harm in keeping them.
edited 6th Feb '17 3:54:49 PM by Karxrida
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
I don't see any issues, and that includes the alleged super-wordiness. That third paragraph is fine.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Groundhog Peggy Sue is a thing, you know. That's what PMMM is about: A Peggy Sue Plot that also involves a "Groundhog Day" Loop.
edited 7th Feb '17 2:32:15 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Friends forevermore
"Peggy Sue" is a very broad term. The key elements to a Peggy Sue story are:
- A character in the story mentally time travels to an earlier point in their personal timeline, or in an alternate version of their personal timeline.
- They attempt in some way to fix (or break) something from their previous timeline.
Notes I'd like to add:
- If a character arrives at the same point multiple times, it's a Groundhog Peggy Sue, which is a subtrope.
- If a character's younger self is also physically present (instead of being completely replaced by the time traveler), it's usually not an example. Peggy Sue time travel must be mental.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
I'm pleased to see consensus swing in favour of a redefinition. To include bwb's concerns, here's my attempt at a rewrite:
The troper namer began the story after fainting on stage at her high school reunion, but the opportunity to go back and change your life seems more often attached to a Character Death (their own or a loved one). Any cause fits here, so long as the Inciting Incident sends the character's mind back into their younger body. The character benefitting from the plot must often decide if they wish to replay the events exactly as they occured before, or to change their life; which may be good or bad.
While this might seem as a recipe for powerful characters, good writers will attach additional complications that are a direct result of their Time Travel. Their first timeline was rife with lucky breaks, and they're gone this time. Because they're in a younger body, it doesn't have the strength or muscle memory they'd gain later in life. They may have forgotten things they used to know from that time. There's another, less friendly, individual who has also come back in time. And of course, the primary problem with such a scenario: as the character changes things, the new timeline differs more and more, making them less and less able to remember what's going to happen next.
It needs to be reiterated: this is not a sister trope or subtrope to Mary Sue, despite the name.
Compare "Groundhog Day" Loop (the character repeats the same time frame many multiples of times) and It's a Wonderful Plot (the character is able to observe a past where they don't exist, and usually with someone to discuss the changes). If the character regrets their attempts to change their past, they won't be able to restore the original timeline, but perhaps they can get a Close-Enough Timeline. Contrast leaps to (and visions of) the future, provided by Future Shadowing. Very rarely, a Peggy Sue can get a third shot at an event in their past, but beyond that you're in "Groundhog Day" Loop territory.
Notes:
- Save Scumming is repeated resets, which disqualifies it from Peggy Sue.
- Groundhog Peggy Sue is also repeated resets, disqualifies it from Peggy Sue.
- "Groundhog Day" Loop is not limited to a period of 86,164 seconds.
edited 13th Feb '17 6:52:37 AM by crazysamaritan
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
- Save Scumming: In non-video game media, it should be limited to instances where the time-travelling character can choose when in the timeline would a "save point" be made (if limited to only one save point, they can overwrite the old one). This would automatically disqualify Peggy Sue Stories from being cases of Save Scumming, because in them the time traveller has no control over when in the timeline is the "save point" located (simplest and most common case: it's permanently fixed, and the time-travelling is due to some mysterious external force rather than an ability innate to them or an item in their possession).
- Groundhog Peggy Sue is by its very name and definition a subtrope of Peggy Sue. Are you suggesting that we redefine and rename Groundhog Peggy Sue to remove its relationship to Peggy Sue?
- ... What's with the "period of 86,164 seconds" thing?
edited 13th Feb '17 7:06:31 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Ok what about those works where a character is deaged to relive their childhood but not sent back in time? Some examples being Detective Conan and Re LIFE.
edited 13th Feb '17 7:13:49 AM by Memers
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
... That obviously doesn't count. It's Fountain of Youth meets inverted Plot-Relevant Age-Up.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Groundhog Peggy Sue, by it's definition, cannot be a subtrope to Peggy Sue. I'm aware that the name makes it seem related. The opening paragraphs describe Troperithmetic, which adds to the confusion.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
I do not follow your logic. How do you come to the conclusion that Groundhog Peggy Sue is by definition not a subtrope of Peggy Sue?
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Huh. I remember reading that, and preparing to respond, but for some reason I didn't. Perhaps I was waiting in hope for someone else to weigh in, to not make the argument too personal... and forgot about it.
That seems overly restrictive for no readily apparent good reason at all; I could understand if it was "only list examples involving one chance at time travel; multi-chance ones should go to Groundhog Peggy Sue instead, to prevent cluttering", but not a complete ban the way you're talking about. Can you give any possible good that results from imposing such a strict restriction on the trope?
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
(side note: that's fine; happens to all of us. 
)
Without limiting the trope in some way, there's nothing to distinguish it from "Groundhog Day" Loop. My preference is to limit how many times the work uses the time-travel, because a large number of stories follow the formula of Peggy Sue Got Married; Establish present conflicts, an Inciting Incident causes the character to Mental Time Travel to their past, and they resolve past conflicts differently to affect present-day conflicts. One second chance to make a change, and they have to live in a Close-Enough Timeline. Much of the initial timeline is from Exposition, the audience won't see it until the character goes through it a second time. Part of the plot may revolve around trying to repeat whatever caused them to Time Travel.
Stories that allow for repeating the same time frame multiple times tend to have a different plot to them; Establish present conflicts, fail to handle conflicts, 𝄌 travel back in time, fail to handle conflicts, return to coda until "perfect timeline". The audience sees multiple loops occur, and the same character(s) react to the same situation in several different ways. This applies even when we don't see the first timeline, but we usually do. Part of the plot may revolve around trying to prevent whatever causes them to Time Travel.
edited 14th Feb '17 9:09:59 AM by crazysamaritan
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
"Groundhog Day" Loop usually does not happen on purpose, and if it is, the purpose isn't like Peggy Sue where you want to change things. GDL is just that, loops of a certain time frame which may not even involve Time Travel.
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
- Peggy Sue doesn't need to be deliberate any more than GDL does (that is, they both could be deliberate; it isn't part of the definition).
- Any occasion in which you "loop" is Time Travel.
Pretty sure Haruhi Suzumiya's infamous Endless Eight "Groundhog Day" Loop didn't involve somebody traveling through time to make it happen.
Time travel is someone moving forward or back in time. Time loop is the time itself moving back for everyone.
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
Crown Description:
Peggy Sue is a trope based on Peggy Sue Got Married, a movie where the protagonist wakes up in her younger body and has the chance to change her life. They only travel back in time once.
The trope description is overly narrow; focused on this being a fanfic plot when the Trope Namer was a movie utilizing this specific Mental Time Travel. We have many examples outside of fanfic, which disprove the description's contention of this being a primarily fanfic-based plot.
On top of that, there is quite a bit of typical misuse where Save Scumming is used as a general example of this trope (It isn't; Peggy Sue allows the character one extra chance) and any time travel method is added as an example, even if the characters can use it multiple times.
The trope namer was clearly an Inciting Incident scenario, and the trope should probably be redefined so that it takes a higher precedence in the description.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.