Misused: Lost Forever

According to the trope description, Lost Forever if for when a collectible in a video game can no longer be collected if the player didn't collect it before a certain point. However, the trope has been often misused. For example, there have been several instances where it has been used to describe missing or hard to find works or episodes of a work, when those are actually instances of Missing Episode and Keep Circulating the Tapes respectively. Also, Lost Forever has been commonly uses a Stock Phrase for when any item becomes lost, not just loot in a video game that can no longer be obtained.

Wick Check:

• Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth: Used as a Sinkhole that has nothing to do with the trope's definition.
• And Starring Pancho Villa as Himself: Use as a synonym for Missing Episode.
• Animal Crossing: Not really an example. It's used to describe content that is no longer accessible due to the online servers shutting down rather than an item that is no longer obtainable after a certain point in the game.
• Anime: Misuse. Used as a Stock Phrase.
• Anime & Manga: Sinkhole. Used as a synonym for Keep Circulating the Tapes.
• Archive Panic: Sinkhole. Used to describe missing content from a website.
• Armake21: Used a synonym for Missing Episode.
• A Song of Ice and Fire - House Gardener: Used as a Stock Phrase.
• A Song of Ice and Fire - House Stark: Used to describe items that have been lost.
• Book of Corinthians: Used as a synonym for Missing Episode
• BrainScratch Commentaries: Used as a synonym for Missing Episode.
• BZ Power: Sinkhole. Used to describe missing content from the website.
• Cardboard Chronicles: Sinkhole
• Chickification: Used as a synonym for Missing Episode to describe a lost comic.
• Chuggaaconroy: Sinkhole. Used as a synonym for Missing Episode.
• End-of-Series Awareness: Sinkhole
• Game Shows: Used as a Stock Phrase

The trope is even misused on the trope page itself. For example, the two examples under literature are actually in-universe examples of Missing Episode.

I think the best way to stop this trope from being misused is to change the name so it is more clear the trope is talking about video game loot that cannot be collected after a certain point in the game.

Update 12/6/16: After some discussion, several alternative names have been suggested including Limited Availability Component, Availability Deadline Component, Item Availability Deadline, and Loot Availability Deadline. However the current consensus appears to be that Permanently Missable Content is the best alternative name. It was also suggested that Lost Forever be made into a disambiguation page which includes the tropes it's often confused for such as Missing Episode and Keep Circulating the Tapes. I also proposed an a rewrite of the trope description on page 2 of this thread which which accommodates the potential rename, since the current description is a wall of text and several of the paragraphs discuss things that aren't examples of this trope.

Update 12/18/16: It has been decided in this crowner that Lost Forever would be renamed, its description would be rewritten to be more streamlined, and Lost Forever would be made into a disambiguation page for the tropes it's often confused for. It was then decided in this alternative names crowner that Lost Forever be renamed to Permanently Missable Content.

edited 18th Dec '16 7:09:54 PM by ADrago

Wick check looks decent enough. Opened.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

Bumping this because this has not been discussed since it was opened and I still keep seeing this trope being misused.

I'm good with renaming the trope for clarity, but can't think of any passable replacements.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Definitely rename.

Limited Availability Component ?

Availability Deadline Component?

(edited to change the suggested names from "item" to "component" because not all examples will be items )

edited 25th Nov '16 4:07:44 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

I don't think the wall-of-text description is doing this one any favors either.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

I suggest that:

1. This trope be remained to something which makes it more clear to what it's actually about and something less stock phrase-y. In addition to the rename suggestions above, I suggest Item Availability Deadline or Loot Availability Deadline as an alternative name.

2. Cleanup all the misuse of this trope, change examples of when this trope is used as synonym for Keep Circulating the Tapes or Missing Episode to examples of those tropes and move them to the Trivia pages, and change correct uses to be examples of the rename.

3. Shorten the description on the trope page since it's a wall of text.

edited 25th Nov '16 8:23:34 PM by ADrago

It's not always loot, these kinds of progression sensitive windows encompass everything from characters to items to ending flags.

The big thing is if you progress past X point Y meaningful thing is lost permanently in that play through, if you miss it you have to Save Scum or start all over to get it.

edited 26th Nov '16 11:33:16 AM by Memers

I think Lost Forever is a great name, it's not only accurate but usable and memorable, and I hope it won't be next in line to be replaced with an overly verbose mini-description no normal person would actually say.

But it's probably a false hope.

Its memorable, but not clear. Which means people remember the name but not the definition. And we don't necessarily want names that sound like something people would actually say. We want names that aren't misleading or confusing.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

I sort of like the current name too, but the level of misuse is hard to argue with.

The preexisting term is Missables, the FF wiki uses Permanently Missable Content.

edited 27th Nov '16 6:16:55 PM by Memers

If this were a gaming wiki, then "Lost Forever" might be an acceptable name. But as we see from the misuse, people are interpreting to mean all sorts of things, especially in non-game-related contexts. So, yeah, it's pretty clearly not going to work as a name on this site.

ETA: Permanently Missable Content sounds pretty good.

edited 27th Nov '16 6:41:53 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

Make it another vote for Permanently Missable Content.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

Permanently Missable Content sounds like a good alternative name.

Hmm.

Main/LostForever found in: 1825 articles, excluding discussions.

Since January 1, 2012 this article has brought 5,026 people to the wiki from non-search engine links.

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It would be nice to find something to redirect this to, and/or come up with something to plop in its place to take advantage of the misuse. That could halve the size of the cleanup effort (at a rough estimate). But we might need to go to TLP if we don't have any pre-existing tropes that would fit.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

The misuse is Missing Episode and Keep Circulating the Tapes.

We could make a stub pointed to all 3 tropes or make an index in general for lost forever stuff, it does not exist.

Heck Missing Episode even has "Frequently confused with Lost Forever, which is a Video Game Items and Inventory Trope despite having a name that sounds like this Trope."

edited 28th Nov '16 12:25:23 AM by Memers

Leaving the stub as a disambiguation page seems like the best option to me. That number of inbounds along with the high misuse on-site means that lots of the inbounds are probably from misuse offsite. Let's give folks a chance to find the right page.

And I'm ok with Permanently Missable Content

edited 28th Nov '16 12:46:48 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Do we have enough lost forever tropes to make an index? We have 3 so far.

I'm good with that.

Check out my fanfiction!

From the discussion, it seems the best idea would be to create a new trope called Permanently Missable Content in TLP which uses the current definition of Lost Forever and make Lost Forever an index for tropes about things that are just that. The only problem I have with making Lost Forever an index is I feel that there aren't enough tropes about missing objects to fill an index. Do we have any tropes about items or artifacts becoming lost, or any tropes about people becoming lost?

Should there be a crowner, or is it too early?

Why crate a new trope when the trope already exists with that definition? Looks more like a rename + cleanup job to me.

Check out my fanfiction!

Yeah whats on the page on Lost Forever is Permanently Missable Content transplant all pages to that, point all wicks to their correct places, and leave a stub with some redirects is all thats needed.

'All' I say but its still going to be a big job...

EDIT: the quote needs to go though, that is a an argument against Permadeath not missable content.

edited 28th Nov '16 4:38:37 PM by Memers

I agree with making the current name a disambig and renaming the trope to Permanently Missable Content.

edited 28th Nov '16 7:08:21 PM by Karxrida

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

The current consensus appears to be that the trope should be renamed to Permanently Missable Content. I agree that it makes more sense to make Lost Forever a disambiguation. As I mentioned earlier, I also feel that the trope description should be shortened since it is currently a wall of text. I think the examples under Card Games, Comic Books, and Literature should be removed since they aren't examples of Permanently Missable Content. The Yu-Gi-Oh example is actually an example of Keep Circulating the Tapes, and the two Literature examples are actually In-Universe examples of Missing Episode.