Complaining: Scrappy Index

Yes, but no one has offered any actual evidence of the name being misleading, so at this point the argument for changing name amounts to, "I don't like it."

Check out my fanfiction!

I think what they mean is that people think that it's adding tropes that are hated a good deal by a large potion of tropers. Like it's a wiki for tropes that are Scrappies. take a look at these examples at various tropers have added to this index.

• Going Cosmic
  If a work goes too deep into navel contemplating, it will get hate.
• Screw You, Elves!
  The so-called Superior Species get the ridicule they deserve.
• Author Tract
  The viewers are likely to hate a story that gets all preachy and up its own ass with messages.
• Flat Character
  Audiences tend to hate a character who isn't as worth their time as the others.
• Took a Level in Dumbass
  A once-bright character devolved into a total moron.
• Took a Level in Jerkass
  A once-nice character devolved into an asshole.
• Soapbox Sadie
  Her cause may be important, but if she's going to incessantly bitch about it, everyone will hate it.

Most of these are subject to Tropes Are Tools, and Tropes Are Not Bad, but the title of the Index seems to be confused with "adding tropes that are scrappies to you " and then ranting about it, or tropes that have potential for Scrappiness, then ranting about it. The nature of the title and the rather vague description leave the index very much subject to interpretation, leading it to the mishmash it is today.

edited 10th Dec '16 4:29:19 PM by GooglePlexPower

TL;DR they're more Pet-Peeve Trope that proper "scrappy" trope.

We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.

Yeah, those tropes you listed don't belong on the index, as they're not always negative.

edited 11th Dec '16 7:35:12 AM by Berrenta

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

The part about being scrappies to a specific person doesn't float for The Scrappy either.

I agree with deleting most of those. They're not Scrappy tropes.

Took a Level in Jerkass can stay, though. It's basically about how a character becomes more hatable (for better or worse).

Screw You, Elves! probably fits better on Hatred Tropes.

edited 11th Dec '16 10:13:12 AM by AnotherDuck

Check out my fanfiction!

You see what I'm getting at, though?

edited 11th Dec '16 1:54:36 PM by GooglePlexPower

Well, it's what I've been saying from the start. It should only be tropes that are about the audience hating or having a reason to hate characters. Not tropes that, if mishandled, makes people hate the characters. I'd agree with cutting all tropes that aren't about the audience disliking characters, or characters meant to be disliked.

I also think we should add Villains to the subcategories. There are exceptions, but we are supposed to root against them or find them morally questionable.

Check out my fanfiction!

I see your point, but I do think that the part about reason to hate characters could grow messy and easily devolve into the mass of pet peeve tropes someone talked about above. Taken a level in Jerkass is more about a character becoming more cruel, not necessarily more hatable- (Even the most dickish characters are subject to Alternate Character Interpretation, Humor value from Comedic Sociopathy, and Draco in Leather Pants, etc.)

• Also, what everyone seems to be wanting is an index about Audience Hate in general, more then just Scrappies, which is why I still think that it needs a better name.

Pet peeve tropes is in no way included in the definition I stated. Tropes about having a reason is where the trope by design gives you a reason to hate the character. Pretty much any Jerk trope would qualify. And since it's an index and not a supertrope, exceptions are acceptable. "Some people don't like the trope" has no place in it in the definition I want. Someone having an Alternate Character Interpretation is a subjective reaction that has no place in it. Taking that into account is just as bad as having pet peeve tropes included.

As it is, everything on the index fits the description of it.

Check out my fanfiction!

Not by you, but it has been brought up previously in the threat. I’m sorry that wasn’t clear before. Yes, a character can be a jerkass and be loved at the same time. Take Sherlock Holmes of Sherlock. He himself calls himself a high functioning sociopath, and can be quite a jackass to anyone whose name isn’t John Watson, but still has an immense following. Also, too vague definition is exactly why it’s in the repair shop in the first place. It’s a whole mishmash of all sorts of things people interpreted it. Also, there’s more tropes about audience hatred then just Scrappy tropes. Base Breakers? Hate Sinks? That One Level? What about those? This index, as you say, is not a super trope. It goes beyond Scrappy.

As noted, a jerk is not, necessarily, intended as an object of hated. A '90s Anti-Hero is generally intended as a Crazy Awesome badass, not as a Hate Sink . By the way the rank is, apparently:

Rename: 2

Exclusively about scrappy clones:1

About audience hatred: 1

No change: 1

With doubt: 3

Crowner?

edited 13th Jan '17 2:17:40 PM by MagBas

Well, the option "about audience hatred" also covers "scrappy clones", so I'm going with the former.

We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.

You know, it occurs to me that we don't really have guidelines for when to rename an index the way we do for tropes. I could point to "not thriving", since there's only 15 wicks, but really, for an index, that's a decent amount.

1300+ inbounds means we'd have to keep this name as a redirect, though, even if we did decide to rename it.

Anyway, I think the big question is: is this contributing, indirectly, to misuse of The Scrappy? It's hard to tell, but I think it's a valid concern.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

The Scrappy is a character you hate for all the wrong reasons.

IDK if that applies to non-characters, but maybe that's why stuff like Scrappy Mechanic or Scrappy Weapon exists.

We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.

See, to me the difference between Scrappy and Hate Sink is that the former is disliked in a fashion that makes people stop consuming a work.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

• & : I agree with both of you.
• Before this clocks out now, we need to do as Mag Bas suggested and impose a crowner. We've had some interesting and meaningful debates, but that will all be for nothing unless we don't act, and crowner could help decide this seeing as we've had plenty of time to establish a nice assortment of opinions. To review...
  • We could rename it.
  • Have it only be specifically about Scrappy.
  • Specifically About Audience Hatred.
  • Nothing.
  • Subtropes.
• : I think it is. I looked through the pages of the Tropes Are Tools tropes and a good deal of them have been misused as Scrappy in some way, especially Alpha Bitch, Annoying Younger Sibling, Flat Character and Generic Guy. Scrappy Index's inclusion of them and descriptions of them do absolutely nothing to help.

If we get a crowner started, will they extend the deadline so people have extra time to vote?

I don't know...

I don't think the clock is meant to close threads that are currently active. An active crowner seems to me to indicate an active thread.

Flat Character and Generic Guy definitely don't belong. Alpha Bitch and Annoying Younger Sibling might fit, depending on if we include tropes for characters who're (in most cases; it's an index, not a supertrope) supposed to draw some heat from the audience.

Check out my fanfiction!

Well, i created a crowner: [1]

edited 20th Feb '17 2:55:56 AM by MagBas

Hooked; shutting off clock.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

The two top choices are pretty close, wouldn’t it be possible to enact them both? They’re both about revamping the page to a degree.

They need to have a 2:1 or higher ratio in order to call. Also, since the crowner was made yesterday, let's see if either get into consensus range after a couple more days.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

Another Duck wants more evidance, so I'm giving it to them. I went through some more of the Tropes Are Tools tropes shoehorned into the Scrappy index and came up with some in each where they are shoehorned as the Scrappy, which leads me to conclude that it is indeed concluding to the problem. As a result this post is rather long.

• Reika Tamaki herself was disliked due to her being the Alpha Bitch and designated bully. However, Character Development set in and she showed her Hidden Depths and became much more sympathetic.
  • Hate Sink, little context, key word designated.
• Perhaps the audience finds her too bland, or too bitchy.

-Damsel Scrappy

• (Irrelevant, her personality has little to do with how much they are kidnapped)

• In any work, if there's a teenage female character who is hated by the fandom (often for Die for Our Ship reasons), she will be turned into an Alpha Bitch in fanfiction at one point. Some examples are Relena Peacecraft, Sakura Haruno, and Anzu Mazaki.
  • This is a generalization.
• ... And her replacements are Katie and Marisol. Marisol is this trope played straight, Katie is friendlier but a bit of an Ice Queen and non-confrontational and will usually go with Marisol's plans. More work was put into keeping Katie friendly than Marisol, who has developed a reputation with the fandom.
  • I don't know much about this work at all, but how on earth do we know that the showrunners weren't planning to have Marisol be a Hate Sink from the beginning, with Katie being her foil?
• Yukari Takeba's attitude and actions often make her come off as the party's personal Alpha Bitch, most especially during The Answer, where she Took a Level in Jerkass by attempting to revive the Protagonist even though the team just barely survived their fight with Nyx.
  • The full example in one sentance: "She was mean, then she went slightly crazy with grief, but then she got some developement and now she's fine." Part of the complaint comes from her "the party's personal alpha bitch", her actions are clearly NOT meant to be sympathetic, yet the line between Hate Sink and Scrappy begins to blur about at "personal alpha bitch".
• Nanette Namoir from Angela Anaconda is an invoked example - Angela never misses an opportunity to point out how much she hates Nanette, and in practically every episode, there's an extended Imagine Spot where Nanette gets elaborately humiliated. And in an active defiance of Designated Villain, Angela's hatred is completely and utterly justified - Nanette is a manipulative, selfish, 'fake-French' and downright nasty Rich Bitch who happily goes out of her way to make Angela's life worse. Nanette's Beta Bitch, January, also gets this treatment to a much lesser extent, since she just follows whoever's popular rather than being outright malevolent like Nanette.
  • Again, "hated because they are written as a jerk" note the heavy shades of Alpha Bitch in the text. It even says invoked right at the top.
• Haley Meyers was a complete bitch who did nothing but bad-mouth everyone in every single scene she was in. Eventually, Emma slaps her silly after one too many comments, and in the ninth episode of season two, she's violently stabbed to death by the killer.
  • Entry completely based on her Alpha-Bitchery.
• Note that this trope is for younger siblings who are annoying to the other characters, not to the audience. -Annoying Younger Sibling (Found in Scrappy Index)
• Remember, Tropes Are Tools.-Chickification (Also found in Scrappy Index)
• Generic Guy is listed as a Scrappy trope, and have been listed in a few but in general I have found that at worst they seem to be considered boring or “Meh” by the fandoms. This example pretty much sums them all up.
• While he isn't exactly bashed or outright despised, Mark Brendanawicz is definitely not going to top anyone's list of favorite characters. He was meant to be the Straight Man and Only Sane Man of the main cast but the result was a character that fans found incredibly bland...
  • So why is he listed as a Scrappy, if he's not hated? The Scrappy trope lists it as characters meant to be despised, not simply neglected.

Now what do all the examples I've listed have in common? They are all listed as Scrappies for invalid reasons, citing trope that are found in The Scrappy Index! This is why the title is confusing. People see the tropes in the Scrappy Index and associate it with Scrappy, despite it not being actually so. Further blurring the lines are the extremely vague description, which merely says, "Tropes about hate". Even though the index acts differently then the trope itself, which merely limits itself to hatred of characters, they share a name purely on the basis of hate, which results in confusion and could be contributing to misuse (See the examples above). And even if it is OK for Chickification and Annoying Younger Sibling, to be there, that doesn't change that the title is confusing. That's why the name isn't working.

edited 24th Feb '17 6:16:03 PM by GhostHouse