Follow TV Tropes

Following

Broken Base Cleanup

Go To

agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#76: May 22nd 2017 at 1:41:41 PM

@ High Crate, So in other words the Broken Base subject being far too recent & the fact they are middle grounds in said Broken Base subjects. Is that correct?

edited 22nd May '17 1:47:06 PM by agent-trunks

agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#78: May 22nd 2017 at 8:12:16 PM

What about regarding Goku's characterization? Even though there's 3 sides to it, they're all incredibly vocal about which one is the most accurate one. Even the middle ground is just as bad as they 2 sides that's arguing to begin with.

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#79: May 23rd 2017 at 6:14:54 AM

If people are still arguing about it in a year, maybe. Right now there's no way of knowing whether it will be a sustained enough conflict to truly break the base or just another one of those things that people argue about until they find something else to argue about.

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#80: May 23rd 2017 at 1:08:37 PM

Moving on to BrokenBase.Fanfic:

I'm inclined to nix anything centered around one specific fanfic on principle, simply because the majority of any given fandom doesn't care about fanfiction one way or another, making for an overwhelmingly large built-in middle ground. That leaves a couple of entries:

  • The whole genre of slash. Is it homophobic for (mostly straight female) writers to derail characters into OOC gay stereotypes for their own gratification? Is the previous criticism accurate, or is it groundless misogynistic hatred of a female-driven genre from people who don't even read it? Are people who avoid slash only doing so out of homophobia? Is slash misogynistic, given the overwhelming support for male/male ships while female/female ships and canonical female characters (especially canonical love interests) are ignored or derided? Are slash writers taking a stand for gay rights and queer representation in hetronormative media, or just making elaborate excuses to pass off their porn as a political statement? Is it okay to warn for slash? The list goes on.

Some of these are potentially base-breaking issues if you take "readers and writers of fanfiction" as the base in question. The entry, however, is phrased as a series of questions without actually demonstrating that any of these questions have actually divided that base, and as such would need to be rewritten from scratch to have any kind of validity.

  • Any time there is fanfiction of a work where a fanfiction ban was stated by the author, the fanbase breaks between those who take it seriously and those who ignore it and write fanfiction.

This is another potentially base-breaking issue, but as written it falls afoul of Examples Are Not General. To be valid, it would need to point out a particular fanbase that has actually been broken along these lines.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#81: May 23rd 2017 at 3:24:24 PM

I'd argue the first one also falls afoul of Examples Are Not General. These are debated issues in among fanfic readers and writers, but how divisive they are is not a universal thing. (I also think there's been a shift over time here, but that's kind of a moot point).

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#82: May 23rd 2017 at 9:54:36 PM

In addition to the entry about slash fiction being a generic "example", a lot of it isn't about the fandom at all, but about gender issues in general, which is largely from outside sources.

Check out my fanfiction!
Karxrida The Unknown from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
The Unknown
#83: May 28th 2017 at 12:00:45 AM

Broken Base examples from YMMV.Fire Emblem Gaiden that I think need to be looked at:

  • The fact that Echoes is closely mimicking the mechanics of the original Gaiden. Some fans love the faithfulness, especially those who didn't care for the mechanics of the more recent games. Others worry about keeping mechanics that haven't aged well, such as the Cast from Hit Points magic system, the lack of a weapon triangle, and game-breaking items like the Angel Ring, and feel like a remake should strive to improve on the original rather than simply copy it. Similar complaints of faithfulness-over-good-design plagued fellow remake Shadow Dragon, and the Western base in general, which already often feels the Archanea titles in general get disproportionate representation and focus thanks to the Japanese base's Nostalgia Filter. However, this was mitigated with the announcement of the popular Support system.
  • The postgame Chapter 6 involving the origins of the Fell Dragon Grima. The base is torn between those who'd prefer the old games to be kept as distant from the newer entries as possible and those who are glad a formerly Generic Doomsday Villain is finally getting a backstory. And then there's the third camp who doesn't care and is just tired of the old games vs new games fandom wars.
  • Echoes revealing that Duma and Mila are Divine Dragons has split the base in many ways. Some find that Duma being from the Divine Dragon species, a species known for being non-villainous thus far, decreases his Creepy Good and Dark Is Not Evil qualities and makes him come off as a run-of-the-mill antagonist than a subversion of the giant evil god/dragon archetype. Others believe that both siblings should have been Earth Dragons rather than Divine Dragons, as Duma and Mila were translated as Earth Spirit and Earth Goddess in the original game, respectively, and would have also made sense story-wise. It also does not help that Divine Dragons are seen as a Spotlight-Stealing Squad to other dragon species. Others see this as a way to incorporate Valentia into the setting of Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon & the Blade of Light as Echoes/Gaiden was intended to be a Gaiden Game set in the same universe.
  • The fact that the season pass for the DLC costs more than the game itself. Detractors find it overpriced, especially the Lost Altars pack which charges $15 for 10 class upgrades, and argue that some of the content such as the extra supports could and should have been part of the base game. Defenders say that there's no reason to complain about fun extras that don't need to be bought for a complete experience and say that having so much is a sign of Nintendo's confidence in the series. There's also a third faction who, in between this and The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild DLC packs and the Switch's paid online, basically snark "You wanted Nintendo to get with the times...and this kind of practice is common. Be Careful What You Wish For."
  • Deen's redesign. Some like his bishonen revamp and removal of his 80s Hair, while others think his buzzcut and mullet had its charm and felt it made Deen stand out. The original hairdo is kept in Vrai, Deen's old Palette Swap.
  • The romance between Alm and Celica has had a bit of a mixed reception. Many fans find their love for each other powerful and cute, and think that they balance each other out well. Others believe that they're unrealistically devoted for characters who only knew each other briefly seven years ago and would rather have the option to hook them up with someone else.

edited 28th May '17 12:01:05 AM by Karxrida

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#84: May 28th 2017 at 4:35:46 AM

Man, even considering how broken this 'trope' is, it's still incredible to see an example that actually says there's a faction of fans who don't care about the supposed base-breaking issue.

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#85: May 28th 2017 at 5:58:10 AM

[up][up]

None of those describe a sustained and bitter conflict between two or more distinct camps. Nix 'em.

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#86: May 28th 2017 at 6:05:00 AM

Moving on to the BrokenBase.Film subpages:

I'm not finding anything worth saving on BrokenBase.DC Extended Universe. Like a lot of these ultra-specific subpages, a lot of it is documenting mixed reaction to pre-release materials, which fails the "sustained" portion of the definition.

Also not finding much of merit on BrokenBase.Batman V Superman Dawn Of Justice, which largely falls into the "Complaint complaint complaint but some people don't mind it" trap.

edited 28th May '17 6:06:48 AM by HighCrate

DustSnitch Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#87: May 28th 2017 at 10:15:17 AM

The entry about Batman killing people on the Batman v. Superman page is fairly legitimate, since there is a great deal of arguing about whether that works or not.

Besides that, the page is fairly useless.

Apocrypha Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: Singularity
#88: May 28th 2017 at 11:18:06 AM

Is Base-Breaking Character allowed to share a page with Broken Base, or should it be on its own? Or is it supposed to be cut completely (I see the main page says No Examples Please, but there are thousands of works with examples)? Some pages, like Fire Emblem Fates, have them sharing one.

edited 28th May '17 11:18:35 AM by Apocrypha

Karxrida The Unknown from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
The Unknown
#89: May 28th 2017 at 1:32:51 PM

The No Examples Please thing is only for whatever specific page it's listed on, and usually allows wicks and off-page examples. Confusing, I know.

I don't think Broken Base and Base-Breaking Character should be sharing a dedicated page. I'm also willing to bet that the Fates page you mentioned needs a once-over.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#90: May 29th 2017 at 2:48:54 AM

The Duma and Mila thing does seem to spark some heated discussions on Serenesforest at least.

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#91: May 29th 2017 at 5:54:41 AM

@Dust Snitch - I don't know, I don't remember all that many people arguing in favor of Batman killing. I remember a lot of people complaining about it, and I remember a lot of people making fun of Zack Snyder's silly justification for it, and I remember a couple of people saying that it didn't particularly bother them, but I don't remember anyone arguing vociferously that it was actively a good thing.

Apocrypha Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: Singularity
#92: May 29th 2017 at 9:10:47 AM

@Karxrida: Huh, okay. Thanks, that is a bit confusing! So should it get its own seperate page if it's particularly long, or just be added back onto YMMV?

(Also yes, the Fire Emblem Fates pages is in need of massive reworking)

edited 29th May '17 9:17:06 AM by Apocrypha

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#93: May 29th 2017 at 11:21:37 AM

On Serenesforest, the change of Duma and Mila to Divine Dragons, sparked a large debate between the fandom on the forums.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#94: May 29th 2017 at 5:51:18 PM

Is there a reason why you posted that twice?

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#95: May 30th 2017 at 9:55:04 AM

Moving on to BrokenBase.Marvel Cinematic Universe and its subpages:

  • BrokenBase.Avengers Age Of Ultron: Not seeing anything worth saving here. Bunch of short-term, low-stakes conflicts in which the majority of the fanbase fits somewhere in the middle.
  • BrokenBase.Ant Man: Ditto here. Some minor disagreements that were quickly forgotten once the film's time in theaters had come and gone.
  • BrokenBase.Captain America Civil War: Ugh, this may be the worst one yet. Lots of future-tense entries based on pre-release information, lots of one-sided complaining disguised as Broken Base, lots of minor quibbles that didn't even begin to actually split the fanbase. Nothing worth saving.
  • BrokenBase.Doctor Strange 2016: The controversy over casting British actress Tilda Swinton as the (traditionally Tibetan) Ancient One might be valid, but right now it suffers from severe Example Indentation problems and needs to be rewritten. Everything else can be cut.
  • BrokenBase.Spider Man Homecoming: Not out yet, cut on principle.
  • BrokenBase.Thor Ragnarok: Not out yet, cut on principle.
  • BrokenBase.Agents Of SHIELD: The entry about "Turn, Turn, Turn" looks valid enough, although I'm not sure if it's the plot twist or the character himself who is the source of the break. If the latter, it belongs more properly under Base-Breaking Character. The fact that there are several other entries on the page centered around the same character make me suspect the latter. Thoughts?
  • BrokenBase.Iron Fist 2017: The first entry could be valid, but it doesn't need to be a sub-bulleted four-paragraph essay. Needs to be rewritten and streamlined into one entry.
  • The main BrokenBase.Marvel Cinematic Universe page: Garbage, all of it. Cut it.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#96: May 30th 2017 at 1:14:45 PM

It's the plot twist that broke the base for Turn, Turn, Turn. As for the ones you thought were wroth keeping.

  • The casting of Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One has been divisive. While many are glad to have a powerful character be portrayed by a female actor, especially one as accomplished as Swinton, others are upset that the original Tibetan version isn't being used, mostly because the MCU had yet to feature a heroic Asian person in the films.note  Co-writer C. Robert Cargill's comments on it being done to prevent the movie from being Banned in China due to a potential positive portrayal of a Tibetan character (which the studio itself later denied) added more controversy. He also didn't help things by accusing all the people upset over it of being "Social Justice Warriors", though he later backpedaled on it and said everyone absolutely has the right to have issues with it.

  • Danny's race is a hot-button topic, as there is a divide among fans over whether Danny should have stayed Caucasian or become Asian-American. For this first half the base , keeping Danny white avoids stereotyping as him being Asian would mean the only Marvel/Netflix Asian lead is, of course, a martial artist. The second half of the base argues that Danny being white is an example of Mighty Whitey and essentially amounts to cultural appropriation as Danny essentially takes the culture of a foreign people and makes it his own. They also find the idea of an Asian-American returning to his father's homeland and reluctantly embracing the culture he descended from, exploring the duality of being a second-generation US immigrant, a more interesting story that resonates with many Asian-American viewers. The first half then point out that that's exactly what the white Danny does as he is raised from childhood in a pseudo-Asian culture and then returns to his homeland in adulthood.

edited 30th May '17 1:33:50 PM by VeryMelon

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#97: May 30th 2017 at 2:24:34 PM

I think Avengers: Age of Ultron can still keep the entry regarding Ultron's characterization. I've seen fans claim that Ultron was one of the better villains in the franchise, and other fans that claimed the movie suffered due to his lack of proper characterization. He could be moved under Base-Breaking Character though.

edited 30th May '17 2:24:59 PM by chasemaddigan

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#98: May 31st 2017 at 12:47:01 PM

Copied the old MCU pages to Sandbox.Broken Base Marvel Cinematic Universe and linked subpages in case anyone cares to comb through them for potentially salvageable examples. Copied the rewritten examples from Very Melon's post above (thanks Very Melon!) to the main page and cutlisted the subpages.

Moving on to the other BrokenBase.Film subpages:

  • Star Wars: A case could probably be made for prequel fans vs. OT fans being a legitimate Broken Base, but the example as written does not make that case well at all. The Return of the Jedi entry belongs under Contested Sequel, where it already had an entry, so that can be cut. Nothing else here has much merit IMO.
  • Zootopia: Not seeing anything worth saving here.

As for the main BrokenBase.Film page, there have to be some salvageable examples here, but the ones currently extant on the page are so poorly-written, context-light, and complaining-heavy that it's hard for me to figure out which ones they are. The only one that looks even close to okay as written is the Peter Jackson entry (about the split between fans of his work pre- and post-Lord of the Rings), although even then, I don't think his post-LOTR are mad at his pre-LOTR fans, they just don't particularly care about anything he did previously.

I could see an argument being made in the Terminator and Alien franchises of a split between fans who prefer their respective first and second installments, I've seen that get heated from time to time, although I'm not sure if they truly fit the "no middle ground" test.

edited 31st May '17 1:16:14 PM by HighCrate

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#99: May 31st 2017 at 7:39:20 PM

I'd say in the case of the Civil War there is and still continues to be a lot of fierce debate both in these forums and other places like Tumblr regarding the character focus and the central question of whether Iron Man or Captain America are right. So I would keep the following entries in at least some form:

  • After Winter Soldier, a lot of fans were expecting a movie about Steve, Sam, and Bucky, not Steve, Tony, and all the other superheroes — in other words, Avengers 3. Many fans aren't happy that so many other heroes are going to be included in what is most likely the last Captain America solo film. Other fans are pleased by the inclusion of the other heroes, preferring them to Cap's cast or feeling that the search for Bucky isn't an interesting enough plotline to be the focus of an entire film. [absolutely keep this, probably the hottest point of debate in the fandom a year on]
  • Iron Man's involvement. Some are excited about him, while others think he's had the most character focus and screen time of the entire franchise and will steal the spotlight away from other characters. A third group is also afraid that this film will destroy all his likability, just as comics Iron Man did during this arc.

  • Daniel Bruhl's confirmation that Zemo will not wear his mask or costume from the comics. Some fans understand the decision and recognize that like Hawkeye's comic outfit, some costume elements don't translate well to live-action, while others argue that if Marvel thought Baron Zemo was too silly to accurately portray onscreen, then they should have just used another villain. Also, some fans are taking a wait and see attitude, arguing that the film could set him up to don the mask in a future installment. [could combine with the below issue or tack on the general debate among fans over whether or not he's In Name Only]
  • Whether or not Steve and Tony have a strong enough relationship that the "betrayed friendship" conflict the trailer film touches on would carry any weight. Supporters believe that after two films where the two fight side by side it's perfectly believable that they would consider each other friends, and that despite the bickering there's a strong sense of mutual respect between the two. Detractors state that there's no real evidence that the two are friends outside of their work with the Avengers, that they still spend the majority of the two Avengers movies arguing, and it's ludicrous to think that Steve would seriously consider choosing a man who's mostly a colleague over a highly traumatized childhood friend on the run from false accusations. A third group agrees with the latter conclusion, but is fine with the line believing that it fits with Tony's previous characterization. [still true though could be reworded now that the movie has come out]
  • Whether or not Steve is justified in helping Bucky. Supporters of his decision say that Bucky was Brainwashed and Crazy and thus would not be responsible for what had happened to him. Detractors, on the other hand, draw attention to the fact that regardless of the reasons, he did commit acts of terror for decades and should in the very least stand some form of trial (though certainly not execution by a strike team), even if it is to bring the idea of HYDRA brainwashing up as a matter for the courts. In addition, there's the matter that Hawkeye and Selvig appeared to have no trouble getting a pardon for everything they did under Loki's mind control. The actual film has him wanted for a recent crime, and one he's framed for at that. Crimes committed under HYDRA's brainwashing only become important in a single It's Personal case at the end. [same as above]
  • Cap and Bucky being able to defeat Iron Man. Fans are divided on whether it's justified or that it is simply a result of the duo's upcoming Popularity Power and/or being the Russo brothers' Creator's Favorite. [admittedly not something that seems like it would garner such a Broken Base but I have indeed seen persisting arguments over this on other sites]
  • Bucky's decision to go back into cryo and hide out in Wakanda until he can be cured. Some fans like it and consider it a fittingly Bittersweet Ending, but a lot of Bucky fans consider this an unnecessarily harsh Downer Ending and Anti-Climax conclusion to the Winter Soldier arc, and are holding out hope that he'll appear in the upcoming Black Panther movie. [the stuff about the future Black Panther aside, this is more common on character-centric sites like Tumblr but it's something that is debated]
  • The amount of humor and one-liners in the largest set-piece in the film, the 6v6 fight at the Airport. Is it mitigated by all characters involved only trying to subdue each other without serious harm, or a Mood Whiplash? [definitely needs rewriting but even professionals like RLM still argue about the sudden tone shift in the middle]
  • The developing relationship between Steve and Sharon, specifically the kiss they share. Out of nowhere and improper (especially as it happens very shortly after Peggy's death), or a cute rare bright moment for Iron Woobie Steve Rogers. There is considerable shipper bias either way. [may make sense to at least put an entry under Ship-to-Ship Combat]
  • Is Helmut Zemo one of the best MCU villains after Loki, Kingpin and Kilgrave or yet another underdeveloped villain? While the character is one of the movie's Ensemble Darkhorses and is generally agreed to be a cut above most of the other MCU villains in terms of characterization, the real dividing point is whether he deserves to be compared to the above three, not unlike Ultron. There's also a sizeable portion of the fanbase decrying him as an In Name Only adaptation, having none of the traits of the comic book character, while others feel he embraced comic Zemo's most important character trait, being The Chessmaster (as well as his motivation to avenge the death of his father). There's also a lot of disagreement on if his plan is a well-thought-out, brilliant master plan that makes sense and works for the plot, or a convoluted mess that only works because the writers make it so and relies too much on coincidences. If you accept that these aren't coincidences, but actually events he deliberately planned for or orchestrated, does this make Zemo a Magnificent Bastard on par or even surpassing Loki, or just an Ass Pull-laden Villain Sue who the writers bend-over-backwards to ensure he wins? Given he's a non-flashy, non-costumed villain with no powers who never directly fights the Avengers themselves, it's unclear how much of this is down to fans with Hype Backlash who wanted a more physical threat and are nitpicking his plan out of annoyance, or legitimate issues they find with his plan that could have been avoided if he was a more physical threat instead of just a chessmaster.
    In particular, Zemo's master stroke involves showing Tony Stark footage of the Winter Soldier killing his parents so that he turns against Steve, which for some is an Ass Pull since it's not explained how Zemo knew about it or that Tony himself didn't, and if he was wrong his plan would have fallen apart. For others, the fact that HYDRA and SHIELD's secrets are now on the public record so anyone could know about it, but Tony and Steve's ability to work together after the events of Winter Soldier would indicate Tony himself didn't. [there is a lot of debate about Zemo, though this could be trimmed down]

Some of the other entries sound like a case of Square Peg Round Trope and can be restored under other tropes such as Alternate Character Interpretation rather than deleted completely.

At the least new entries should definitely be added regarding the "who was right, Iron Man or Captain America" and "did the movie do a good job at being fair presenting their viewpoints".

edited 31st May '17 7:50:23 PM by AlleyOop

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#100: May 31st 2017 at 8:23:06 PM

Can't say I've ever heard any of these actually argued about. I've seen differences of opinion on some of them, but not bitter, entrenched fandom civil war. And several of them look like Opinion Myopia to me, someone writing their own opinion as though it had broader support than it actually did. As a general rule, I'm suspicious of any entry that nitpicks a particular plot or character point of one particular entry in a much broader franchise. That's not the sort of thing that tends to break an entire fanbase on an ongoing basis. I don't doubt that someone somewhere argued over each of these at some point, but someone somewhere has argued about everything ever. We're not in the business of cataloging every minor disagreement two people on a forum somewhere have ever had, that's People Sit On Chairs.

edited 31st May '17 8:27:19 PM by HighCrate


Total posts: 2,135
Top