Broken Base Cleanup:

Total posts: [502]
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Edit: Thread consensus has arrived at four criteria for Broken Base, which I will copy-paste here so that they're always easily visible in the first post:

  • A sustained conflict: short-term conflicts that are quickly forgotten don't count.
    • Corollary: Conflicts about upcoming works based on previews, trailers, and speculation are short-term by definition and should be cut on sight.
  • An exceptionally vicious conflict: a simple disagreement where the various factions have little problem co-existing doesn't count.
  • Two or more large, vocal, and entrenched factions within the fanbase: a tiny Vocal Minority that won't shut up about their pet peeve but is vastly outnumbered by more reasonable fans doesn't count. Nor does a silent majority that likes what they like (or hates what they hate) but doesn't make a big deal about it.
    • Corollary: the fanbase must itself be large enough to support two or more large and entrenched factions. This is more likely to be the case with broad fandoms (e.g. "Star Wars fans" or "anime fans") as opposed to narrow ones (fans of one particular work such as a single film or video game with no sequels, adaptations, or spinoffs).
  • Little to no middle ground: Cases in which the vast majority of the fandom just plain doesn't care too much about the disagreements of a few fringe elements don't count.

The original first post follows:

Broken Base is ostensibly about deep-seated arguments within a fanbase. Okay, fine. That's a thing that happens. The problem is that many entries are written in such a way as to side firmly with one side over the other, to the point where it's a thinly-veiled excuse for complaining. They tend to spend the majority of space laying out one side's argument for why a particular entry or element in a franchise is the Worst Thing Ever(TM), and then wrap up saying something like, "...but there are some people who like it."

Example: In YMMV.Mass Effect 2:

* Broken Base: This game is either the best of the entire series filled with tons of interesting character stories and an awesome main plot or it's a massive filler Idiot Plot rife with plot holes, a horribly done Unexplained Recovery, limited RPG elements and many unnecessary retcons and changes to the lore of the series. There's not a whole lot of in-between for fans, though it's worth noting that this criticism mostly came as the years went by, during the time of it's release it was , it was covered in high ratings.

That's... just plain not the case. Broad consensus is that ME2 is the high point of the series. There are certainly folks who prefer ME1, some vociferously, but it's only a very vocal minority who tear into 2 the way the writer of this entry does.

edited 27th Nov '17 8:52:27 AM by HighCrate

This is from to YMMV.Cinderella 2015:
  • Like with virtually every remake, the titular character herself is hotly debated as to whether this is a new and improved Cinderella or not. Detractors point out the film's efforts to make her appear strong and independent achieve the opposite since she's no longer brainwashed from childhood and frequently leaves the house only to return and stomach her abuse— always smiling no less. Others argue those attributes strengthen her as she's made more interesting and likable.

Bear in my mind it also had this sentence at the end, before I trimmed it down as Natter:

Nostalgia Critic summed up the debate by saying Ever After is better than both anyway.

Also someone else added this underneath it:
  • And there's a third camp that argues whether the two films should be compared. Notably in The Nostalgia Critic "Old vs New", they agreed to a tie because both stories had different merits. The animated one focused more on the titular heroine escaping her dreary life, while the remake is more about her trying to hold onto her kindness.

3 VeryMelon23rd Jun 2016 01:44:57 PM from United States , Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
SUPER SOMETHING ELSE!
So, what's the point of this thread exactly.?
To clean up the complaining by saving those examples that can be saved, and cutting what must be cut. Another thing I'm noticing is that a lot of the example subpages are cluttered with Natter, Thread Mode, and examples that more properly belong under Base-Breaking Character (which is No Examples, Please and so examples should be cut on sight) or Contested Sequel.

I went through BrokenBase.Anime And Manga and culled a whole lot of misuse.

edited 27th Nov '17 8:53:06 AM by HighCrate

5 VeryMelon23rd Jun 2016 02:14:38 PM from United States , Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
SUPER SOMETHING ELSE!
Alirght then. Here's what I submit from Dragon Ball Super:

* Broken Base:
  • Champa and Vados from the poster. Some just consider them lazy and boring, others think the idea of other members of their race or even alternate versions of them from another universe might be interesting. Others think the audience should just wait and let the series come out before judging it.
  • Goten and Trunks still being little kids has also been divisive among the fanbase.
    • There is a little bit of precedence for this, however. Goku looked like a little kid until the first Time Skip in Dragonball, when he was 18. Gohan being fairly big at 11 may have just meant that he matured quickly (he is a little taller than Goku now, meaning he's one of the tallest characters in the series).
    • Vegeta also mentions that Goku and he are still considered "young" by Saiyan standards, even though Vegeta himself is close to or over 50 (he's physically 55 by the Champa Saga). It's very likely that Saiyans' long lifespans means they also have a proportionately longer adolescence, and thus don't hit their pubescent years until they're almost 20 (if Goku is any indication).
  • Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’ being adapted into story arcs instead of the show just picking up after them. Some feel getting more attention and screen time will help flesh them out more, others feel it's a waste of time.
  • The Slice of Life format for the first few episodes. Some enjoy seeing the main characters during a time of peace and give more screen time to their families, as well as Krillin, Piccolo, and Mr. Satan. Others find the slow pace boring, comparing it to Z's filler episodes, dislike the exclusion of the rest of the cast, and don't like the jokes. These earlier episodes, along with the other Slice of Life episodes, have been Vindicated by History by many and fans have even declare them the best part of the show.
  • The music. Some are upset that they went with Dragon Ball Kai Buu Saga music-type tracks instead of using the original Dragon Ball Z Japanese tracks or something closely inspired by it. Most don't care and think the music is good enough.
  • The voice actors for the series. Fans are excited that most voice actors from the original series have returned to once again breathe life into these beloved characters. On the other hand, some feel that it was time to let new voice actors come and take up the mantle; King Kai, voiced once again by his original voice actor, Joji Yanami, reads all his lines in a monotone voice, even when the animation has him yelling, which becomes jarring. This makes sense since Yanami is in his eighties and can't really strain his voice anymore compared to the original series twenty years ago, but doesn't help the case of those against recasting them—which is eventually done anyway due to Yanami's health issues.
  • The animation and art. Most thinks it looks nice and some even says it looks better than the canon movies in some ways given that the characters don't have that unusual shine to them. Other thinks the art and animation is serviceable, but can be much better if Toei wasn't so cheap. The reusing of Dragon Ball Kai footage also have the base broken between those who sees it as a cheap, money saving scam since they should have redrawn the footage, and those who don't mind since it ties Super to the previous anime and question why Toei should spend money redrawing a few seconds of old footage. There is another camp who is just happy the animation didn't turn out like that of Sailor Moon Crystal. Episode 5 got the most flack for bad animation since it is the big Goku vs. Beerus fight and the animation was anything but spectacular. The base broke even further here after some fans decided to make it a Never Live It Down issue and started complaining that all the art was bad by doing things like zooming in to crowd shots and complaining about the lack of detail on distant background faces or taking in-between frames from action scenes to complain about. Other fans quickly got sick of it and started posting off model frames from Dragon Ball Z, accusing the first group of wearing their Nostalgia Goggles too tightly.
  • The animation questions also becomes a base breaker when the subject of DVD releases are brought up. Many fans note, like Sailor Moon Crystal and Naruto, that any questionable or off-animation will be fixed and redone on DVD. Also, by the time Super comes to North American, westerns will get the superior DVD releases televise instead of the original version. Naturally, this brings up the very debated subject of whether such practices are good since it encourages animators and editors to be 'lazy' instead of trying to get it right the first time.
  • Comparisons to the last Dragon Ball anime, Dragon Ball GT, were bound to happen. Some complain that GT was moving the pace forward by its second episode while Super takes its time to cover the events of two films, which in turn draws out the old laundry list of GT's narrative flaws. Overall, most agree that right now it is impossible to compare Dragon Ball Super with Dragon Ball GT since Super is ongoing while GT ended decades ago. However, since the start of the Champa Saga, most fans have considered Super to be superior to GT. Even before the end of the retellings, some thought Super was better than GT simply because of the character interactions and characterizations.
  • The pacing of the series has been criticized for being slow and boring, often compared to the worst filler of Dragon Ball Z. Since it is an original program unlike Dragon Ball Z, it lacks the justification of not catching up to the source material. It was particularly prominent during the beginning of the show with its Slice of Life episodes, but remains as the story moves through the events of Battle of Gods. Some wonder if whether this is due to many fans already knowing where the story will go thanks to the show adapting the events of the canon films and being a brand new show, people want to see new material instead of retreading known information. There is also a third group who likes the slower pacing. One of the complaints about the movies, especially Resurrection 'F, was that things moved too fast, many characters weren't giving any screen time or development, and the fight with Beerus was too short to be enjoyable. Some of the complaints about the pacing have been tone down since the start of the Resurrection 'F' Saga. Most like what has been added with the show taking the time to show Goku and Vegeta's training, and adding characters who had no or little screen time in the movie like Tagoma, Ginyu, and Gotenks. Some fans even wished the Resurrection 'F' Saga was longer since they wanted to see the training Frieza did over four months, the Z-Fighters fighting Frieza's men longer, more of Tagoma and Ginyu, and details on how Vegeta surpassed godhood with just hard work. The complaints with the pacing have all but died with the Champa Saga since not only is new material being presented, but nothing is dragging. Which now leads some people to complain that Super is moving too fast and should have devoted entire episodes to Goku's fights with Botamo and Frost. Fans also wanted to see more of the training Goku and Vegeta did in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and more of Gohan and Piccolo's training.
  • There is a small group of fans who prefer the promotional manga for Dragon Ball Super over the anime, citing the better pacing, artwork, characterizations, and fights as reasons to chose it over the anime. They also tend to believe that the manga is closer to Toriyama's vision of the series, despite nothing of the sort being confirm. The better pacing argument has been reduced since the manga is an once a month publication, while the anime is weekly and has picked up the pace since the beginning of the Champa Saga and has greatly surpassed the manga, which made many stopped following the manga all together. Critics of the manga also claim that the fight between Goku and Frost went on too long, Vegeta's fight with Frost is also too long and not that interesting, the Piccolo vs. Frost fight is extremely lackluster and short, and the Magetta vs. Vegeta match is treated as one big gag with Super Saiyan Vegeta being unable to lift 1000 tons. The characterization argument are usually between fans who like that Goku in the promotional manga seems more mature and not as childish as anime Goku, and those who disliked the manga version of Goku because he acts more like a jerk, especially towards Gohan not fighting anymore. There are also those who really dislike how Champa and Vados are presented in the manga where they are hit with Adaptational Villainy and are treated as the Greater-Scope Villain for the Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' Sagas, while in the anime they are more Chaotic Neutrals who overall does less villainous things than Beerus in his introduction. Critics also dislike the manga used of redrawing or tracing panels from the original Dragon Ball manga. However, Chapter 13 really shattered the base. Instead of using the Kaio-Ken to fight Hit, Goku instead uses Super Saiyan God, despite Toriyama's own words that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorbed its power into his base. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan also has severe stamina issues in the manga, apparently. Vegeta lost 90% of his overall power just by transforming twice against Cabba, which is how Hit easily beat him. This makes Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan severely impractical, and makes Goku and Vegeta look like hypocrites for scolding Frieza for the stamina issues of his golden form, especially since they had Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for at least three years and it still have this energy issue. Vegeta also comes off as holding the Idiot Ball since he powers down from Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan several times despite knowing he would lose energy each time he powered up, or worse he didn't know about the power drain. Hit is also overall weaker since he doesn't improve like the anime, instead he's just holding back and he can't maintain his full power for long since he never had to use it before, much like 100% Frieza on Namek. Goku also said that Vegeta may have beating him if he hadn't wasted his energy against Cabba, while Hit beat a mostly full powered Vegeta because of his time skip and being highly skilled. Some like these changes since it shows that the U6 fighters are not 'god level' since Super Saiyan God is not Goku and Vegeta's base forms since Goku can become a Super Saiyan God. They also say it explains why Goku and Vegeta didn't use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to just wreck all the fighters. Most, however, hate these changes since it gimps Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, which was presented as the ultimate form of Super Saiyan since it merges the stability of a master Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, and it goes against Toriyama's statements about Goku absorbing godhood. They also despise that the U6 fighters are nothing but cannon fodder to Goku and Vegeta if their base forms are not god level, including Hit who would have lost to Goku if he hadn't forfeited. Overall, most prefer the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaio-Ken combo, even if it wasn't Toriyama's idea, since it's closer to Toriyama's statements and his version of events from Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F'.
  • The show's focus on Goku and Vegeta as the primary characters have come under fire of fans of the human characters, Piccolo, and the other Saiyans. Some of them have derail Super as the 'Goku and Vegeta show'. Most of these fans tend to be westerners who grew up on Dragon Ball Z where Goku, despite being the main character, was always hit with the Deus Exit Machina for large sections of the story to keep him from ending the saga sooner and allow more screen time to the secondary characters trying to survive without him, especially Gohan who was built up as Goku's successor, while the original Dragon Ball anime was completely Goku's story. The huge power different between Goku and Vegeta, and the other characters does not help since any threat that can pose any danger to those two would have no problem dealing with any character outside of Beerus, Champa, Whis, and Vados. Goku specifically gets the worst of it since Vegeta's fans are upset that he 'stole' Vegeta's shine by killing Frieza, got whacked with The Worf Effect during his fight with Hit, and then gets surpassed again by Goku after he reveals that he can used the Kaio-Ken as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and crack it up to ten times. The bitterness over the attention and shilling Goku gets have some fans calling him a Mary Sue.
  • Beerus' character is questioned by fans. Compared to the movies, where his personality is that of a spoiled kid throwing a temper tantrum when angered, the anime cranks this negative behavior up a few notches. Beerus himself is more prone to smiling like a troll towards people and blowing up planets over the most minor offenses. He ultimately comes across as a bigger jerk as a result; he expects for others to ALWAYS treat him with respect, even when he doesn't do it in return at times. Some fans find it unfair that no one can call out Beerus on this simple fact due to him being THE second most powerful being in the universe. On the other hand, the rest of the fanbase find him hilarious for still providing much of the humor in this new series and take it in stride that an all-powerful god like him GETS to act like a jerk to everyone. Some of this, however, is due to Beerus' Disproportionate Retributions happening off-screen in the movies. In Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’ Beerus talks about destroying planets, but never does it. Here, with more time to explore the issue, we fully see Beerus in all his pettiness. That being said, Beerus does mellow out towards the protagonists over the course of the Resurrection F saga, becoming more like the movie version.
  • The overall Darker and Edgier tone for the Battle of Gods Saga in comparison to the movie. Some like that Beerus is shown as a more dangerous villain with all his evil and petty deeds shown on-screen. Others hate that Beerus' dorky moments were tone down or omitted and miss the general light-hearted, comedy feel of the movie, which was more in the tone of the original Dragon Ball instead of Z. This also gets into the whole Dragon Ball versus Dragon Ball Z debate among some fans.
  • The general tone of the series. Despite the Darker and Edgier tone that the series took with the canon movies, some fans say that Super is too light-hearted and is obviously aimed at 'kids' unlike Dragon Ball Z, especially since Super tends not to depict blood. Most of these fans tend to be US fans who grew up with Dragon Ball Z and may not have read or watched the original series, which is much more humor based since Dragon Ball started as a gag manga. There is also the matter that Dragon Ball as a franchise has always been aimed at children, specifically boys between the ages of 8-14. Values Dissonance plays a huge role in this since what is deemed okay for kids in Japan doesn't always translate into the West, which is why Z was aimed at teenagers and young adults in the US, while still being considered a children's show in Japan. A good example of this is Dragon Ball Kai that airs late on Toonami with the reruns airing on Adult Swim, while Kai and Super are Sunday morning cartoon shows in Japan, although Kai was edited during that timeslot. The start of the Future Trunks Saga seemed to have dialed this complaint down.
  • Videl's hair turning gold during the Super Saiyan God Ritual has proven to be quite the base breaker, mainly because no one can agree on what it means, if it means anything in the first place. Theories tend to range from Pan being a Super Saiyan even before birth, another rather large detraction from GT, to thoughts that since Videl is mixing blood with Pan (which is a big Artistic License - Biology since a pregnant mother doesn't mix blood with their unborn child), or perhaps just her Saiyan power, she herself is now capable of the form. Given that we have never seen a female Super Saiyan in canon it's hard to say if it even was a transformation since Videl's hair doesn't turn spiky, nor do her eyes turn green. Then of course there is Videl getting faint afterward which makes it even harder to tell what happened.
  • Gohan's Badass Decay. The never ending cycle of Gohan's fans being mad that their character isn't the strongest unfused character and stops training again is a huge base breaking for those who think it makes sense for his character since he doesn't like to train or fight, and those who think he's Ruined Forever. This complaint becomes baffling when fans blamed Toei for ruining Gohan when Toriyama wrote the two movies that Super adapted which shows the same decay. Most of the anger seems to be that Super put more emphasizes on Gohan becoming weaker since it has far more dire consequences. Some fans have also gone as far as to blame Chi-Chi for turning Gohan into a 'wimp' because she pushed studying above Martial Arts. This is ignoring that Gohan is a grown man and isn't even living with his mom and can train if he wants. Of course, this makes fans blame Videl for holding him back, because Videl's family is rich and Gohan doesn't need to work to support her and his daughter.
  • Piccolo's death in the Resurrection 'F' Saga. Some loved it since it was an unpredictable twist for those who saw the movie. Others hated it since they see it as unnecessary, especially since the Super manga already spoiled that he would be alive for the next arc. On the other hand, it does serve the purpose of getting Gohan to realize that maybe he should work off that Badass Decay.
  • Ginyu's unceremonious death. Some fans sees this as a giant waste of a beloved character and makes his grand return pointless since the plot didn't need him there to begin with. Other fans sees Ginyu's return as fanservice and his death gives a proper conclusion to to his story. Also, Ginyu couldn't do much since he's way below Goku and Vegeta and it is within Vegeta's character to take out anyone who maybe a threat, especially someone who can changed bodies on a whim. Vegeta completing his Ginyu kill collection is just an added bonus.
  • Piccolo and Buu being chosen to be on Beerus' team over Gohan. Goku didn't want Gohan to come since he retired from fighting and has a family. This, naturally, caused Gohan's fans to be outraged that their character has fallen into further decay and being ruined. Another part of the fandom is happy that Piccolo is finally getting some attention after playing second fiddle to the Saiyans since the Buu Saga and Buu is getting some character focus since little has been done with his character since he turned good. Then, a lot of these points were rendered moot when Buu failed the entry exam, either by answering all the questions wrong or falling asleep during testing, and wasn't allowed to fight, and Piccolo only had one match, which he lost due to Frost cheating and was forced to forfeit by Vegeta. This opened up a whole new can of worms since the fandom isn't happy with what was done with Piccolo and Buu during the tournament, with many calling their inclusion completely pointless and false advisement.
  • There has been some dispute as to whether Champa is evenly strong or slightly weaker than Beerus. While it is universally agreed the two are very close in power, some people believe Beerus to be stronger because of statements made by Vados and Beerus himself, as well as the fact that, when they fought in a flashback in the manga, Beerus was visibly toying around with Champa, which makes sense since Beerus is the one who ate Champa's strawberry and Champa was attacking him for it. Detractors state that Vados' and Beerus' remarks shouldn't be taken at face value and are simply jokes/snide cracks meant to make fun of Champa's weight, and say that the flashback fight doesn't count because it didn't happen in the anime.
  • Frost, after it was revealed he was Evil All Along. While Toriyama is well known for subverting expectations, the majority of the fanbase feels that They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character because a good version of Frieza is something many had been asking for a long time. It also doesn't help that Vegeta's reaction borders on Fantastic Racism, and you can't even disagree considering not a single heroic member of the species has appeared yet. It is largerly admitted to be an effective plot-twist because the audience feels a sense of betrayal as well, but the fans are divided as to whether it was worth ruining such a promising Ensemble Darkhorse. This got worse after the manga chapter came out and instead of being actually evil, he's just a bit of an underhanded jerk when outmatched, which some like much better while others still feel it's a big downgrade from his initial depiction and him being a good guy would've still been preferable.
  • Related to the fallout with Frost, Piccolo losing to Frost because he was poisoned and Vegeta forcing him to forfeit the tournament so he can fight Frost who was originally disqualified for cheating broke the fandom for weeks. Piccolo's fans were pissed that Piccolo lost after he had the match in the bag and they hated Vegeta for forcing him forfeit just so he can fight Frost. It got so bad that fans blamed Toei for making Piccolo lose just to make Vegeta look good. This accusation only went away after the Super manga showed Piccolo losing in the same manner, except he didn't even get a good fight out of Frost. The aftermath of all this have fans calling Super, the 'Goku and Vegeta Show', since there was no point for Piccolo to even come to the tournament since Goku and Vegeta handled things by themselves and they didn't need Piccolo or Buu. Some Piccolo's fans, however, did feel a little better after Hit beat Vegeta's butt.
  • Exactly how strong Piccolo is after the Resurrection 'F' Saga and where he ranks compared to the Big Bads in Z. This one is particularly tricky since there is mutually exclusive evidence on where he ranks: Goku insists on bringing Fat Buu to the tournament and only brings Piccolo because Gohan refuses and he's the next strongest person on the planet. On the other hand, Vegeta takes no issue with taking Piccolo (although Gohan was his first and only choice). His fight with Frost also isn't dependable because no-one can really measure how much Frost is weakened from his battle with Goku or how much he is holding back, and no one comments on Piccolo's power throughout the entire fight which is usually an indicator that someone has gotten much stronger.
  • Also related to power levels, the base broke after Copy-Vegeta (who is as strong as Vegeta's base form) easily handled Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Some within the committee cried foul since they feel Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks should have been equal or stronger than Vegeta's base form, or at least put up a decent fight. Others say the power different is correct since Vegeta's base form has almost the same power of a Super Saiyan God, which completely blows away the power of Super Saiyan 3, as seen in the Super Saiyan 3 Goku vs. Beerus and Super Saiyan God Goku vs. Beerus fights. A small minority wants to pretend the Copy-Vegeta fight doesn't count since the episode is considered 'Filler' since it wasn't written by Toriyama. This is despite Super technically not having filler since the anime is the main canon. Toriyama's own statements after the release of Battle of Gods also supports Copy-Vegeta base form being above a Super Saiyan 3 since he says that Goku absorbs Super Saiyan God into his being, which is why he doesn't need that transformation anymore.
  • Future Trunks returning with blue hair. This has split the fanbase between those who are outraged that Future Trunks' hair is now blue where it has always been a light purple and Present Trunks' hair color remains unchanged, and those who don't see it as a big deal since Toriyama is infamous for changing characters' hair color. Fans also point out that Bulma's hair in Super is blue whereas it was aqua-green in the anime and purple in the manga, yet people weren't upset about that. Another small group don't like Future Trunks' new haircut. There are also those who disliked Future Trunks returning since they feel his story wrapped up perfectly at the end of the Cell Games and hate that his happy ending is being overridden for the sake of fan service.
  • Future Mai being introduced as a major character in the Future Trunks Saga. Some are happy to see an old favorite from the original Dragon Ball play a role in a major arc, citing Mai as the most interesting and levelheaded person from the Pilaf gang. Others hate the idea, especially since it could tie into Mai being Trunks' girlfriend, a storyline that was dropped in the Battle of Gods adaptation in Super because their counterparts didn't interact much and Trunks had no need for a pretend girlfriend in this version, if nothing else. They also see Mai as a waste since they wanted to see other favorites return like Launch. There is also debate about how old Future Mai is. Some say she looks too young and that she couldn't have wished for youth like main timeline Mai since the Dragon Balls are dead. Others point out that characters in Super generally looked younger, like how Future Bulma looks younger than she did in Z despite 17 years passing. They also point out that Pilaf and his gang could have wished to be young before Kami died since even in the main timeline, Pilaf didn't know about the Dragon Balls being upgraded. Then there is the evident Squick factor if there is a romance as de-aged or not, Mai is supposed to roughly be the same age as Bulma chronologically, however some fans are fine with it since it's known that the Pilaf Gang have a very innocent view on romantic interaction and in the original DB story (much to Bulma's suprise) they make the point that they don't cross lines that shouldn't be crossed.
  • When Toriyama announced that the villain for the Future Trunks Sage is someone called Black Goku, it divided the fanbase. Most liked the idea since an evil Goku, not just another Evil Counterpart, was something many fans wanted for years. Another part of the fandom hated the idea since an evil Goku is one of the oldest fanfic clichés within the Dragon Ball committee and some argued that an evil Goku would just be a Perfect Cell, Majin Buu, or Beerus character, or it will be a retread of Majin, Baby, or Copy Vegeta. They also point out that Turlus, the primary villain of Tree of Might, was already created as an evil version of Goku, or more specifically Kakarot. Others were upset that they weren't given an original villain and disliked that Goku was 'stealing' the villain role after taking all the limelight as the hero from other characters like Vegeta, Piccolo, and Gohan. This cools down after the promotional art for the Future Trunks Saga was released and everyone saw Black Goku, who was considered awesome, and mysterious since he wears a Kai's earring, and that they weren't recycling the evil Saiyan Goku was supposed to be approach that was the concept behind Turles and many fanfics. When he made his debut, he quickly became a fan favorite for his cold, ruthless demeanor, being Creepy Awesome, and being completely different to Goku.

As you can see, it's pretty long and could stand to be trimmed down.
Jeez, no kidding. Let me give it a look-through:

* Broken Base:
  • Champa and Vados from the poster. Some just consider them lazy and boring, others think the idea of other members of their race or even alternate versions of them from another universe might be interesting. Others think the audience should just wait and let the series come out before judging it.

Sounds like something left over from when folks only had pre-release materials to go off of. (One more reason why I don't think we should trope unreleased work, but that's neither here nor there.) Delete it.

** Goten and Trunks still being little kids has also been divisive among the fanbase.
  • There is a little bit of precedence for this, however. Goku looked like a little kid until the first Time Skip in Dragonball, when he was 18. Gohan being fairly big at 11 may have just meant that he matured quickly (he is a little taller than Goku now, meaning he's one of the tallest characters in the series).
  • Vegeta also mentions that Goku and he are still considered "young" by Saiyan standards, even though Vegeta himself is close to or over 50 (he's physically 55 by the Champa Saga). It's very likely that Saiyans' long lifespans means they also have a proportionately longer adolescence, and thus don't hit their pubescent years until they're almost 20 (if Goku is any indication).

This is 95% natter, 5% substance. Delete.

** Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’ being adapted into story arcs instead of the show just picking up after them. Some feel getting more attention and screen time will help flesh them out more, others feel it's a waste of time.

Looks valid enough.

** The Slice of Life format for the first few episodes. Some enjoy seeing the main characters during a time of peace and give more screen time to their families, as well as Krillin, Piccolo, and Mr. Satan. Others find the slow pace boring, comparing it to Z's filler episodes, dislike the exclusion of the rest of the cast, and don't like the jokes. These earlier episodes, along with the other Slice of Life episodes, have been Vindicated by History by many and fans have even declare them the best part of the show.

This seems a little narrow for a series page if it's only referring to a handful of episodes. Could belong in recap pages for the episodes in question (if there are any). Otherwise, delete.

** The music. Some are upset that they went with Dragon Ball Kai Buu Saga music-type tracks instead of using the original Dragon Ball Z Japanese tracks or something closely inspired by it. Most don't care and think the music is good enough.

Broken Base tends to involve Love It or Hate It disputes, not "hate it or don't really care." Delete.

** The voice actors for the series. Fans are excited that most voice actors from the original series have returned to once again breathe life into these beloved characters. On the other hand, some feel that it was time to let new voice actors come and take up the mantle; King Kai, voiced once again by his original voice actor, Joji Yanami, reads all his lines in a monotone voice, even when the animation has him yelling, which becomes jarring. This makes sense since Yanami is in his eighties and can't really strain his voice anymore compared to the original series twenty years ago, but doesn't help the case of those against recasting them—which is eventually done anyway due to Yanami's health issues.
  • The animation and art. Most thinks it looks nice and some even says it looks better than the canon movies in some ways given that the characters don't have that unusual shine to them. Other thinks the art and animation is serviceable, but can be much better if Toei wasn't so cheap. The reusing of Dragon Ball Kai footage also have the base broken between those who sees it as a cheap, money saving scam since they should have redrawn the footage, and those who don't mind since it ties Super to the previous anime and question why Toei should spend money redrawing a few seconds of old footage. There is another camp who is just happy the animation didn't turn out like that of Sailor Moon Crystal. Episode 5 got the most flack for bad animation since it is the big Goku vs. Beerus fight and the animation was anything but spectacular. The base broke even further here after some fans decided to make it a Never Live It Down issue and started complaining that all the art was bad by doing things like zooming in to crowd shots and complaining about the lack of detail on distant background faces or taking in-between frames from action scenes to complain about. Other fans quickly got sick of it and started posting off model frames from Dragon Ball Z, accusing the first group of wearing their Nostalgia Goggles too tightly.
  • The animation questions also becomes a base breaker when the subject of DVD releases are brought up. Many fans note, like Sailor Moon Crystal and Naruto, that any questionable or off-animation will be fixed and redone on DVD. Also, by the time Super comes to North American, westerns will get the superior DVD releases televise instead of the original version. Naturally, this brings up the very debated subject of whether such practices are good since it encourages animators and editors to be 'lazy' instead of trying to get it right the first time.

Complaining. Delete.

** Comparisons to the last Dragon Ball anime, Dragon Ball GT, were bound to happen. Some complain that GT was moving the pace forward by its second episode while Super takes its time to cover the events of two films, which in turn draws out the old laundry list of GT's narrative flaws. Overall, most agree that right now it is impossible to compare Dragon Ball Super with Dragon Ball GT since Super is ongoing while GT ended decades ago. However, since the start of the Champa Saga, most fans have considered Super to be superior to GT. Even before the end of the retellings, some thought Super was better than GT simply because of the character interactions and characterizations.

Valid enough, although it should be moved to the Franchise page as opposed to the Super page, since it's a matter of the factions within the greater Dragon Ball fandom as opposed to Super's specifically.

** The pacing of the series has been criticized for being slow and boring, often compared to the worst filler of Dragon Ball Z. Since it is an original program unlike Dragon Ball Z, it lacks the justification of not catching up to the source material. It was particularly prominent during the beginning of the show with its Slice of Life episodes, but remains as the story moves through the events of Battle of Gods. Some wonder if whether this is due to many fans already knowing where the story will go thanks to the show adapting the events of the canon films and being a brand new show, people want to see new material instead of retreading known information. There is also a third group who likes the slower pacing. One of the complaints about the movies, especially Resurrection 'F, was that things moved too fast, many characters weren't giving any screen time or development, and the fight with Beerus was too short to be enjoyable. Some of the complaints about the pacing have been tone down since the start of the Resurrection 'F' Saga. Most like what has been added with the show taking the time to show Goku and Vegeta's training, and adding characters who had no or little screen time in the movie like Tagoma, Ginyu, and Gotenks. Some fans even wished the Resurrection 'F' Saga was longer since they wanted to see the training Frieza did over four months, the Z-Fighters fighting Frieza's men longer, more of Tagoma and Ginyu, and details on how Vegeta surpassed godhood with just hard work. The complaints with the pacing have all but died with the Champa Saga since not only is new material being presented, but nothing is dragging. Which now leads some people to complain that Super is moving too fast and should have devoted entire episodes to Goku's fights with Botamo and Frost. Fans also wanted to see more of the training Goku and Vegeta did in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and more of Gohan and Piccolo's training.
  • There is a small group of fans who prefer the promotional manga for Dragon Ball Super over the anime, citing the better pacing, artwork, characterizations, and fights as reasons to chose it over the anime. They also tend to believe that the manga is closer to Toriyama's vision of the series, despite nothing of the sort being confirm. The better pacing argument has been reduced since the manga is an once a month publication, while the anime is weekly and has picked up the pace since the beginning of the Champa Saga and has greatly surpassed the manga, which made many stopped following the manga all together. Critics of the manga also claim that the fight between Goku and Frost went on too long, Vegeta's fight with Frost is also too long and not that interesting, the Piccolo vs. Frost fight is extremely lackluster and short, and the Magetta vs. Vegeta match is treated as one big gag with Super Saiyan Vegeta being unable to lift 1000 tons. The characterization argument are usually between fans who like that Goku in the promotional manga seems more mature and not as childish as anime Goku, and those who disliked the manga version of Goku because he acts more like a jerk, especially towards Gohan not fighting anymore. There are also those who really dislike how Champa and Vados are presented in the manga where they are hit with Adaptational Villainy and are treated as the Greater-Scope Villain for the Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' Sagas, while in the anime they are more Chaotic Neutrals who overall does less villainous things than Beerus in his introduction. Critics also dislike the manga used of redrawing or tracing panels from the original Dragon Ball manga. However, Chapter 13 really shattered the base. Instead of using the Kaio-Ken to fight Hit, Goku instead uses Super Saiyan God, despite Toriyama's own words that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorbed its power into his base. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan also has severe stamina issues in the manga, apparently. Vegeta lost 90% of his overall power just by transforming twice against Cabba, which is how Hit easily beat him. This makes Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan severely impractical, and makes Goku and Vegeta look like hypocrites for scolding Frieza for the stamina issues of his golden form, especially since they had Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for at least three years and it still have this energy issue. Vegeta also comes off as holding the Idiot Ball since he powers down from Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan several times despite knowing he would lose energy each time he powered up, or worse he didn't know about the power drain. Hit is also overall weaker since he doesn't improve like the anime, instead he's just holding back and he can't maintain his full power for long since he never had to use it before, much like 100% Frieza on Namek. Goku also said that Vegeta may have beating him if he hadn't wasted his energy against Cabba, while Hit beat a mostly full powered Vegeta because of his time skip and being highly skilled. Some like these changes since it shows that the U6 fighters are not 'god level' since Super Saiyan God is not Goku and Vegeta's base forms since Goku can become a Super Saiyan God. They also say it explains why Goku and Vegeta didn't use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to just wreck all the fighters. Most, however, hate these changes since it gimps Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, which was presented as the ultimate form of Super Saiyan since it merges the stability of a master Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, and it goes against Toriyama's statements about Goku absorbing godhood. They also despise that the U6 fighters are nothing but cannon fodder to Goku and Vegeta if their base forms are not god level, including Hit who would have lost to Goku if he hadn't forfeited. Overall, most prefer the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaio-Ken combo, even if it wasn't Toriyama's idea, since it's closer to Toriyama's statements and his version of events from Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F'.
  • The show's focus on Goku and Vegeta as the primary characters have come under fire of fans of the human characters, Piccolo, and the other Saiyans. Some of them have derail Super as the 'Goku and Vegeta show'. Most of these fans tend to be westerners who grew up on Dragon Ball Z where Goku, despite being the main character, was always hit with the Deus Exit Machina for large sections of the story to keep him from ending the saga sooner and allow more screen time to the secondary characters trying to survive without him, especially Gohan who was built up as Goku's successor, while the original Dragon Ball anime was completely Goku's story. The huge power different between Goku and Vegeta, and the other characters does not help since any threat that can pose any danger to those two would have no problem dealing with any character outside of Beerus, Champa, Whis, and Vados. Goku specifically gets the worst of it since Vegeta's fans are upset that he 'stole' Vegeta's shine by killing Frieza, got whacked with The Worf Effect during his fight with Hit, and then gets surpassed again by Goku after he reveals that he can used the Kaio-Ken as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and crack it up to ten times. The bitterness over the attention and shilling Goku gets have some fans calling him a Mary Sue.
  • Beerus' character is questioned by fans. Compared to the movies, where his personality is that of a spoiled kid throwing a temper tantrum when angered, the anime cranks this negative behavior up a few notches. Beerus himself is more prone to smiling like a troll towards people and blowing up planets over the most minor offenses. He ultimately comes across as a bigger jerk as a result; he expects for others to ALWAYS treat him with respect, even when he doesn't do it in return at times. Some fans find it unfair that no one can call out Beerus on this simple fact due to him being THE second most powerful being in the universe. On the other hand, the rest of the fanbase find him hilarious for still providing much of the humor in this new series and take it in stride that an all-powerful god like him GETS to act like a jerk to everyone. Some of this, however, is due to Beerus' Disproportionate Retributions happening off-screen in the movies. In Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’ Beerus talks about destroying planets, but never does it. Here, with more time to explore the issue, we fully see Beerus in all his pettiness. That being said, Beerus does mellow out towards the protagonists over the course of the Resurrection F saga, becoming more like the movie version.

Complaining. Delete.

  • The overall Darker and Edgier tone for the Battle of Gods Saga in comparison to the movie. Some like that Beerus is shown as a more dangerous villain with all his evil and petty deeds shown on-screen. Others hate that Beerus' dorky moments were tone down or omitted and miss the general light-hearted, comedy feel of the movie, which was more in the tone of the original Dragon Ball instead of Z. This also gets into the whole Dragon Ball versus Dragon Ball Z debate among some fans.
  • The general tone of the series. Despite the Darker and Edgier tone that the series took with the canon movies, some fans say that Super is too light-hearted and is obviously aimed at 'kids' unlike Dragon Ball Z, especially since Super tends not to depict blood. Most of these fans tend to be US fans who grew up with Dragon Ball Z and may not have read or watched the original series, which is much more humor based since Dragon Ball started as a gag manga. There is also the matter that Dragon Ball as a franchise has always been aimed at children, specifically boys between the ages of 8-14. Values Dissonance plays a huge role in this since what is deemed okay for kids in Japan doesn't always translate into the West, which is why Z was aimed at teenagers and young adults in the US, while still being considered a children's show in Japan. A good example of this is Dragon Ball Kai that airs late on Toonami with the reruns airing on Adult Swim, while Kai and Super are Sunday morning cartoon shows in Japan, although Kai was edited during that timeslot. The start of the Future Trunks Saga seemed to have dialed this complaint down.

Valid, but wordy. Can we condense these two bullet points into one much shorter one?

** Videl's hair turning gold during the Super Saiyan God Ritual has proven to be quite the base breaker, mainly because no one can agree on what it means, if it means anything in the first place. Theories tend to range from Pan being a Super Saiyan even before birth, another rather large detraction from GT, to thoughts that since Videl is mixing blood with Pan (which is a big Artistic License - Biology since a pregnant mother doesn't mix blood with their unborn child), or perhaps just her Saiyan power, she herself is now capable of the form. Given that we have never seen a female Super Saiyan in canon it's hard to say if it even was a transformation since Videl's hair doesn't turn spiky, nor do her eyes turn green. Then of course there is Videl getting faint afterward which makes it even harder to tell what happened.

Sounds more like Wild Mass Guessing than Broken Base.

** Gohan's Badass Decay. The never ending cycle of Gohan's fans being mad that their character isn't the strongest unfused character and stops training again is a huge base breaking for those who think it makes sense for his character since he doesn't like to train or fight, and those who think he's Ruined Forever. This complaint becomes baffling when fans blamed Toei for ruining Gohan when Toriyama wrote the two movies that Super adapted which shows the same decay. Most of the anger seems to be that Super put more emphasizes on Gohan becoming weaker since it has far more dire consequences. Some fans have also gone as far as to blame Chi-Chi for turning Gohan into a 'wimp' because she pushed studying above Martial Arts. This is ignoring that Gohan is a grown man and isn't even living with his mom and can train if he wants. Of course, this makes fans blame Videl for holding him back, because Videl's family is rich and Gohan doesn't need to work to support her and his daughter.

Valid enough, but full of cruft that could be deleted. Also probably belongs under Base-Breaking Character since it revolved around a single character.

** Piccolo's death in the Resurrection 'F' Saga. Some loved it since it was an unpredictable twist for those who saw the movie. Others hated it since they see it as unnecessary, especially since the Super manga already spoiled that he would be alive for the next arc. On the other hand, it does serve the purpose of getting Gohan to realize that maybe he should work off that Badass Decay.

Sounds valid enough, although that last sentence sounds like natter and can probably be removed.

** Ginyu's unceremonious death. Some fans sees this as a giant waste of a beloved character and makes his grand return pointless since the plot didn't need him there to begin with. Other fans sees Ginyu's return as fanservice and his death gives a proper conclusion to to his story. Also, Ginyu couldn't do much since he's way below Goku and Vegeta and it is within Vegeta's character to take out anyone who maybe a threat, especially someone who can changed bodies on a whim. Vegeta completing his Ginyu kill collection is just an added bonus.

Looks valid enough to me.

  • Piccolo and Buu being chosen to be on Beerus' team over Gohan. Goku didn't want Gohan to come since he retired from fighting and has a family. This, naturally, caused Gohan's fans to be outraged that their character has fallen into further decay and being ruined. Another part of the fandom is happy that Piccolo is finally getting some attention after playing second fiddle to the Saiyans since the Buu Saga and Buu is getting some character focus since little has been done with his character since he turned good. Then, a lot of these points were rendered moot when Buu failed the entry exam, either by answering all the questions wrong or falling asleep during testing, and wasn't allowed to fight, and Piccolo only had one match, which he lost due to Frost cheating and was forced to forfeit by Vegeta. This opened up a whole new can of worms since the fandom isn't happy with what was done with Piccolo and Buu during the tournament, with many calling their inclusion completely pointless and false advisement.

More complaining than not. Delete.

** There has been some dispute as to whether Champa is evenly strong or slightly weaker than Beerus. While it is universally agreed the two are very close in power, some people believe Beerus to be stronger because of statements made by Vados and Beerus himself, as well as the fact that, when they fought in a flashback in the manga, Beerus was visibly toying around with Champa, which makes sense since Beerus is the one who ate Champa's strawberry and Champa was attacking him for it. Detractors state that Vados' and Beerus' remarks shouldn't be taken at face value and are simply jokes/snide cracks meant to make fun of Champa's weight, and say that the flashback fight doesn't count because it didn't happen in the anime.

Looks valid enough.

** Frost, after it was revealed he was Evil All Along. While Toriyama is well known for subverting expectations, the majority of the fanbase feels that They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character because a good version of Frieza is something many had been asking for a long time. It also doesn't help that Vegeta's reaction borders on Fantastic Racism, and you can't even disagree considering not a single heroic member of the species has appeared yet. It is largerly admitted to be an effective plot-twist because the audience feels a sense of betrayal as well, but the fans are divided as to whether it was worth ruining such a promising Ensemble Darkhorse. This got worse after the manga chapter came out and instead of being actually evil, he's just a bit of an underhanded jerk when outmatched, which some like much better while others still feel it's a big downgrade from his initial depiction and him being a good guy would've still been preferable.
  • Related to the fallout with Frost, Piccolo losing to Frost because he was poisoned and Vegeta forcing him to forfeit the tournament so he can fight Frost who was originally disqualified for cheating broke the fandom for weeks. Piccolo's fans were pissed that Piccolo lost after he had the match in the bag and they hated Vegeta for forcing him forfeit just so he can fight Frost. It got so bad that fans blamed Toei for making Piccolo lose just to make Vegeta look good. This accusation only went away after the Super manga showed Piccolo losing in the same manner, except he didn't even get a good fight out of Frost. The aftermath of all this have fans calling Super, the 'Goku and Vegeta Show', since there was no point for Piccolo to even come to the tournament since Goku and Vegeta handled things by themselves and they didn't need Piccolo or Buu. Some Piccolo's fans, however, did feel a little better after Hit beat Vegeta's butt.

Complaining. Delete.

** Exactly how strong Piccolo is after the Resurrection 'F' Saga and where he ranks compared to the Big Bads in Z. This one is particularly tricky since there is mutually exclusive evidence on where he ranks: Goku insists on bringing Fat Buu to the tournament and only brings Piccolo because Gohan refuses and he's the next strongest person on the planet. On the other hand, Vegeta takes no issue with taking Piccolo (although Gohan was his first and only choice). His fight with Frost also isn't dependable because no-one can really measure how much Frost is weakened from his battle with Goku or how much he is holding back, and no one comments on Piccolo's power throughout the entire fight which is usually an indicator that someone has gotten much stronger.

This doesn't really describe the base being bitterly divided, just that there's a plot point that is open to interpretation. Delete.

** Also related to power levels, the base broke after Copy-Vegeta (who is as strong as Vegeta's base form) easily handled Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Some within the committee cried foul since they feel Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks should have been equal or stronger than Vegeta's base form, or at least put up a decent fight. Others say the power different is correct since Vegeta's base form has almost the same power of a Super Saiyan God, which completely blows away the power of Super Saiyan 3, as seen in the Super Saiyan 3 Goku vs. Beerus and Super Saiyan God Goku vs. Beerus fights. A small minority wants to pretend the Copy-Vegeta fight doesn't count since the episode is considered 'Filler' since it wasn't written by Toriyama. This is despite Super technically not having filler since the anime is the main canon. Toriyama's own statements after the release of Battle of Gods also supports Copy-Vegeta base form being above a Super Saiyan 3 since he says that Goku absorbs Super Saiyan God into his being, which is why he doesn't need that transformation anymore.

I suppose this is valid, although power-level arguments make my head hurt. I'd delete it if I were allowed to have my way about everything, but I won't argue too hard for it.

** Future Trunks returning with blue hair. This has split the fanbase between those who are outraged that Future Trunks' hair is now blue where it has always been a light purple and Present Trunks' hair color remains unchanged, and those who don't see it as a big deal since Toriyama is infamous for changing characters' hair color. Fans also point out that Bulma's hair in Super is blue whereas it was aqua-green in the anime and purple in the manga, yet people weren't upset about that. Another small group don't like Future Trunks' new haircut. There are also those who disliked Future Trunks returning since they feel his story wrapped up perfectly at the end of the Cell Games and hate that his happy ending is being overridden for the sake of fan service.

This sounds like another case that's more "vocal minority are pissed about something, most don't care" than a truly divided base. Delete.

** [[spoiler: Future Mai being introduced as a major character in the Future Trunks Saga. Some are happy to see an old favorite from the original Dragon Ball play a role in a major arc, citing Mai as the most interesting and levelheaded person from the Pilaf gang. Others hate the idea, especially since it could tie into Mai being Trunks' girlfriend, a storyline that was dropped in the Battle of Gods adaptation in Super because their counterparts didn't interact much and Trunks had no need for a pretend girlfriend in this version, if nothing else. They also see Mai as a waste since they wanted to see other favorites return like Launch. There is also debate about how old Future Mai is. Some say she looks too young and that she couldn't have wished for youth like main timeline Mai since the Dragon Balls are dead. Others point out that characters in Super generally looked younger, like how Future Bulma looks younger than she did in Z despite 17 years passing. They also point out that Pilaf and his gang could have wished to be young before Kami died since even in the main timeline, Pilaf didn't know about the Dragon Balls being upgraded. Then there is the evident Squick factor if there is a romance as de-aged or not, Mai is supposed to roughly be the same age as Bulma chronologically, however some fans are fine with it since it's known that the Pilaf Gang have a very innocent view on romantic interaction and in the original DB story (much to Bulma's suprise) they make the point that they don't cross lines that shouldn't be crossed.
  • When Toriyama announced that the villain for the Future Trunks Sage is someone called Black Goku, it divided the fanbase. Most liked the idea since an evil Goku, not just another Evil Counterpart, was something many fans wanted for years. Another part of the fandom hated the idea since an evil Goku is one of the oldest fanfic clichés within the Dragon Ball committee and some argued that an evil Goku would just be a Perfect Cell, Majin Buu, or Beerus character, or it will be a retread of Majin, Baby, or Copy Vegeta. They also point out that Turlus, the primary villain of Tree of Might, was already created as an evil version of Goku, or more specifically Kakarot. Others were upset that they weren't given an original villain and disliked that Goku was 'stealing' the villain role after taking all the limelight as the hero from other characters like Vegeta, Piccolo, and Gohan. This cools down after the promotional art for the Future Trunks Saga was released and everyone saw Black Goku, who was considered awesome, and mysterious since he wears a Kai's earring, and that they weren't recycling the evil Saiyan Goku was supposed to be approach that was the concept behind Turles and many fanfics. When he made his debut, he quickly became a fan favorite for his cold, ruthless demeanor, being Creepy Awesome, and being completely different to Goku.

Base-Breaking Character. Delete.

edited 23rd Jun '16 5:56:52 PM by HighCrate

7 VeryMelon24th Jun 2016 07:13:48 AM from United States , Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
SUPER SOMETHING ELSE!
I took care of those changes you suggested.
8 VeryMelon24th Jun 2016 11:52:03 AM from United States , Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
SUPER SOMETHING ELSE!
Uh, quick word here. Base Breaker is allowed to have examples on the YMMV sections of works pages.
Thanks for the heads up. I was going to asked about that.
10 war87724th Jun 2016 12:33:16 PM from Untamed Wilds , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Grr... <3
No, it's not. Base Breaker is a redirect to Base-Breaking Character. (or will be)

edited 24th Jun '16 12:34:19 PM by war877

11 VeryMelon24th Jun 2016 12:36:37 PM from United States , Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
SUPER SOMETHING ELSE!
Alright then, I'll just change the wick.
So, is anyone gonna take a look at the example I brought up here [up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up].
Probably fits better under Base-Breaking Character.
Walking the Earth
This is an example from Last Week Tonight with John Oliver:

  • Broken Base: Based on YouTube likes and comments, his video on Online Harassment seems to be split into four major camps: those who completely agree, those who believe that using the highly controversial figure Anita Sarkeesian (and Brianna Wu, to a lesser extent) as an example of online harassment was a misstep that undermined the point (as she has frequently been accused of using the more toxic parts of her hatedom as an excuse to silence her more civil and reasonable critics and such people feel that by using her as an example, John Oliver was playing right into her hands), though they still agree with it otherwise, those who feel that John did the issue a disservice by ignoring the online harassment men receive, and others that believe that the women named deserve all the harassment they get.

While this is seems to be a valid Broken Base, the first point is basically "some people liked it". The second argument is the most detailed by far and makes it look heavily skewed towards the view.

Also, I personally strongly disagree with the last three arguments (since they don't take away from the fact that people are being harassed online), but as long as there are enough people holding those opinions, they make for a valid positions for a Broken Base example. However, I'd be surprised if most people in the fourth camp were part of the shows fanbase.

edited 25th Jun '16 5:34:21 PM by supergod

For we shall slay evil with logic...
15 Silverblade226th Jun 2016 10:38:39 AM , Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Something that bothers me a lot is that Broken Base is often used for the overall reception of a work rather than contentions in the work's fandom. For example:

Mighty No. 9 "Troubled Production and Hype Backlash aside, is the game still worth playing? Some think it's just an uninspired Mega Man clone that forgets what made the series so popular and has too many issues to enjoy. Others think that it's perfectly fine for a 20-30 dollar game, and it can be a good experience if you can ignore some of the more glaring problems. The only thing people can agree on is that game would've been significantly better received if the hype had been lower and the development had been smoother."
16 AnotherDuck26th Jun 2016 12:10:28 PM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
Yeah, that doesn't sound like an example. It's not like they're fighting over if the game is crap or not. It's just about people having different opinions, which is People Sit on Chairs.
Check out my fanfiction!
Most of the sub-bullets on that page are of roughly the same (lack of) quality. I did some pruning and left the link to here in the edit history.
18 dsneybuf12th Jul 2016 11:27:31 AM , Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
From YMMV.Deadpool 2016, underneath Broken Base:

The change to his origin story is the big one for three reasons. 1.) The project that made him what he was is no longer (at least stated to be) attached to the weapon X program. 2.) Deadpool's Healing Factor is his own mutation that was activated through torture instead of being implanted with Wolverine's DNA. 3.) The origin of his name "Deadpool" was changed slightly; instead of being a betting pool among the experiments as to who would get killed next time they were tested on, it's the betting pool at the Bad-Guy Bar Wade frequented.

Does anyone else think this entry doesn't do a very good job explaining, to someone who either didn't notice or didn't mind those changes, why they would break the base? I already tried hiding this entry, but someone else later un-hid it, without attempting to revise it first.

edited 12th Jul '16 11:28:32 AM by dsneybuf

I'm with you. As written, that does not describe a Broken Base, just a list of changes in the latest adaptation.

edited 12th Jul '16 1:24:05 PM by HighCrate

20 Silverblade213th Jul 2016 12:07:06 AM , Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Arrow

"The show itself among comic fans: Either the show's decision to go no-superpowers route and many other changes (especially the changes made to Huntress and Deathstroke) mean it's an insult to the comics, or the no-powers thing makes it approachable and, in spite of those changes, it is still a decent show."

It looks like Broken Base used as "overal reception". I think "among comic fans" is too general.

The Loud House

"Chris Savino himself, apparently. Some are happy he's getting his own show because of his work on Kick Buttowski and My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. Others aren't as optimistic, because he was a part of the Seasonal Rot for Dexter's Laboratory and Powerpuff Girls."

ditto Inheritance Cycle

"To this day, the Cycle fanbase is polarized into two parts: one part that thinks that the series is an unoriginal ripoff of much better series, and one part that thinks that it's a good story despite these influences."

I'm not defending the series but people who think "that the series is an unoriginal ripoff of much better series" don't look like fans in the first place.

edited 19th Jul '16 12:51:58 AM by Silverblade2

I think these examples need a lookin' at:

Bones
* For some fans, the Poorly Disguised Pilot The Finder in Season 6 and the Sleepy Hollow crossover in Season 11 can feel very off in tone compared to the rest of the show. The former because it barely feels like a Bones episode, and the latter because of the reasons mentioned in Hilarious in Hindsight and Fanon Discontinuity.

Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius:
* The debate on whether the movie should have won nomination for Best Animated Feature or not divides people till this day. Some say it's a cute story with memorable characters that definitely deserved having more people hear about it, others contend it was absurd to give an animated feature with obviously dated animation (and not just compared to the very same year co-nominees) so much praise in a contest for, well, best animation. Then there are those who love the TV series and think it's much better than the movie. And there are others who, while liking or even loving the movie just fine, think it didn't need a nomination. Though considering how much the Best Animated Features in recent year usually lean toward mostly Disney fare (and even that isn't always exempt i.e Wreck-It Ralph losing to Brave on the suspicion that the Academy wouldn't recognize a video game film despite it's story being consider better. A sentiment likewise shared when The LEGO Movie wasn't even nominated for supposedly being too commercial), this has cause the debate to go down in years since most animation fans favor creativity in conjunction with pretty visuals rather then just the latter by itself. It can also be forgiven considering it was an early category.

Power Rangers (2017):
  • Rita Repulsa's redesign. Many people dislike it because visually it looks nothing like her original appearance, with a complete change to the hair and colour-scheme being the major complaints. However, there are also people who are glad that it's such a departure because now she actually looks like she could be a threat and believably throw down with the rangers themselves. It should also be noted that there are some people who fall into both camps.
  • The new Power Ranger designs themselves have quickly become contentious for a handful of reasons, including complaints about the breastplate armour and heels on the Pink Ranger and Yellow Ranger's outfits. Some fans and observers comments that new suits bear a passing resemblance to Iron Man's suit. However, it should be noted that reception toward the designs are much more positive than reception to Rita's new look, in no small part because they're more faithful to the original source material.
  • The first trailer was fairly divisive. Those who didn't like the trailer pointed out the number of high school cliches it ran through setting up the characters, the obvious parallels with The Breakfast Club and Chronicle and overall serious tone for a franchise movie based on a very light and silly series. Those who liked the trailer pointed out how the high school drama was probably just the first act before the actual plot kicks in, the overall story beats (such as the Ragtag Bunch of Misfits) reflect how a number of Power Rangers series other than the original MMPR start out and the more serious approach is trying to attract attention from people who normally wouldn't be interested in a silly Power Rangers movie while the Cliché Storm aspect gives it enough cheese to still feel like Power Rangers.
  • The new Megazord design revealed in toy form on the Power Rangers Instagram. Some people love it because of it's odd alien design making it look more dynamic. Others despise it for looking ugly and not even slightly resembling the original Megazord. The biggest split is the fact that it looks more like a person in a suit than a mecha note . Some people think that it makes a nice homage to the fact that the original Megazord was a guy in a suit behind the scenes, some people like it for looking more organic and sleek, some people hate it for looking like a guy in a suit and not more like an actual machine, and some people hate it for not looking like a proper Megazord at all.
    • Meanwhile some are growing more towards this version of the toy also revealed on the same day as the other, for looking like a proper megazord, as well as the better paint making the inspiration taken from the original megazord more obvious like in the chest and head.
    • A new poster gives us a better look at the CGI Zords, the Sabertooth Tiger in particular, causing people to warm up to them a bit more. Additionally, someone who claims to have attended a test screening of the movie says that the way the Zords combine in the movie is very different to how the toys do and most likely the toys had been designed with ease of transformation in mind instead of screen accuracy.
  • The reveal of Alpha's design, some people have nicknamed it "Alpha Frog" due to his eyes being a pair on the side of his head instead of the iconic slim visor light and his overall look resembling the animal.
  • That Jason is the only one getting a personal weapon and that the other Rangers won't even have their Blade Blasters at all has had some people annoyed that the other Rangers are being somewhat ignored to prop up the leader of the team.
  • In any other series, or in a different context, a giant monster that looks like it's made of melted gold would be absolutely awesome. Unfortunately, that's what Goldar was revealed to look like. Cue frustrations that his new incarnation either looks very little like the ornate armored winged gorilla-man he once was or that his new design is just a plain uninspired and boring.

Terminator Genisys
* Pretty much everything about the movie has fractured the Terminator fanbase considerably.
  • Viewers are generally falling into three camps regarding the film: that the movie is making the series a Franchise Zombie and that the series just needs to be left alone, that the film is decent in its own right but nothing comparable to the original films, or that it managed to Win Back the Crowd and can stand on its own without James Cameron's involvement (something Rise of the Machines and Salvation struggled to do).
  • Jason Clarke's portrayal of John Connor, turning the character from a stylized future guerrilla fighter to a stout, hammy, almost James T. Kirk-esque field general has been mixedly received too.
  • The film overall - it's either a sign of Franchise Zombie settling in that's confusing and befuddling (a lot of the critical reaction is this) or it's an interesting resetting and a good, fun summer blockbuster (a lot of the audience's reaction).
  • Jai Courtney and Emilia Clarke's performances. Some argue that they are good fits for the character (more for Emilia, less so for Jai), and others insist that they are too different from the conception of the characters, and that they wreck the movie for this reason and for not living up to the acting of their predecessors in the saga.
22 nrjxll22nd Dec 2016 12:01:21 AM , Relationship Status: Not war
Pretty much all those sound like they're rather more slanted towards the negative view.
23 dsneybuf22nd Dec 2016 07:42:28 AM , Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
From the Mary Poppins Returns section of YMMV.Mary Poppins:

Time will tell if this remains so but the casting of Lin-Manuel Miranda in the 2018 sequel Mary Poppins Returns is a point of contention among fans. While there are many who are happy about this (mostly fans of Hamilton), others feel that he's only been cast just because of the former and feel that the character of Jack is unneeded, especially since he's a Canon Foreigner who wasn't present in Travers' books and who many are fearing is a Suspiciously Similar Substitute for Bert. That's all we'll say on the matter.

Does it seem necessary to explain why casting the star of a musical as popular as Hamilton sounds like a bad idea to some, even when considering the fact that Julie Andrews became Disney's original Mary Poppins just because of her performances in some of the most popular Broadway musicals of that time?
24 Madrugada22nd Dec 2016 08:34:00 AM , Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
For Broken Base? Yes, explaining what is causing the breakage is context. In this case it's a concern that it's Stunt Casting because a whole new Canon Foreigner character is being created for him. The sinkhole to Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement needs to go, though. It's really serving as a Take That!.

edited 22nd Dec '16 8:36:40 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
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  • Bones: Complaining without describing an actual conflict within the base. Cut.
  • Jimmy Neutron: Reads like shoehorning; I seriously doubt there are enough people who honestly felt the Jimmy Neutron movie deserved a freaking Oscar to constitute a Broken Base. Cut.
  • Power Rangers 2017: This long multipart entry boils down to "fans who think the new movie looks like the Worst Thing Ever(TM) vs. those who think it looks good." Considering that the film's not even out yet, I'd be in favor of cutting the whole thing and waiting for opinions on the finished product to solidify. Even then, probably a better fit for Contested Sequel.
  • Terminator Genisys: Another long multipart entry that boils down to "is this movie any good or not." Cut or combine to a single bullet point and move to Contested Sequel (if it's not already there).

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