Condemned by History cleanup thread

I generally agree with the sentiments in the thread. I'd also throw in a cut vote for live animals. While there was initial popularity, it sounds like they're still used in some capacity, and the prevailing example used to cite the backlash wasn't even really that, but just the industry shifting to other forms of entertainment.

edited 8th Dec '16 8:41:45 AM by crazyrabbits

I'm going to throw in some thoughts on wrestling that I was unable to comment on due to a suspension: Since I'm a huge wrestling fan and did create many of the entries (for Benoit, Ryder, Miz, Sheamus, Del Rio, and Nexus) I feel I should put my two cents in.

• So we're keeping Ashley. That's for sure. I don't have much of an opinion on her but if there's a consensus, I'll agree.
• The "personal scandal" rule means Benoit has to go..
• Miz should stay, but his entry needs to be cut down severely.
• Del Rio was also hit by a "personal scandal" but his hate spreads far beyond that. Many WWE fans see his career as an awful attempt to get a Creator's Pet over.
• Sheamus is pretty much universally derided as a prime example of a Creator's Pet in WWE. He was well-liked when he won his first WWE title from John Cena but fans have held nothign but contempt for him ever since he beat Daniel Bryan in an 18-second squash match at Wrestlemania.
• Honestly I feel Ryder deserved to be cut. He was clearly in DTD territory when I wrote the entry.
• Put Nexus back in, but as a much shorter. I feel most wrestling fans who once loved them consider them a stable who burnt out fast, split into two awful splinter groups, and were used only to put Cena over. They're the embodiment of WWE's bad booking of the 2010s and are seen as the "beta version" of the Shield.
• If we don't add Nexus back, then I feel Ryback should have an entry. He was very popular when he first debuted the gimmick, but then people started to turn against him when he lost to CM Punk at Hell in a Cell and had that horrible feud with John Cena. Ever since then, he's been seen as nothing but an embarrassing punchline in WWE history.

Since you know more than most of us about it, could you take a stab at cutting down Miz's entry?

Made the cuts to DeaderThanDisco.Theater. The only thing there that's all that contentious is the question of whether to merge Minstrel Shows and Blackface or keep them as separate entries. I took a crack at merging them (the option with the closest thing to consensus), and we can keep tweaking that if necessary or restore them as separate entries if the consensus should swing that way.

In the meantime, moving on to DeaderThanDisco.Toys:

• Realistic guns: Cut; while there's an argument to be made that they're now seen as always having been a bad idea, I think there's still just a little too much nostalgia for the likes of Daisy air rifles to count.
• Toy soldiers based on historical war: Cut. Little green army men are still considered a classic childrens' toy and appeared in the Toy Story films and a series of successful video games with no backlash.
• Bratz: Cut. The audience has moved on and good riddance, but I see no evidence of a true retroactive backlash as opposed to an always-extant Hate Dom.
• Lawn darts: Cut. Banned for safety reasons, but no real backlash.
• Sea monkeys: Keep. Definitely one of those "those were so dumb, how did we ever think they were cool" things.
• LJN toys: Cut. Too obscure; I can find no evidence that the article's claim that they were "once up there with Mattel" has any truth to it.
• Some Transformers thing?: Cut. Too obscure.

And DeaderThanDisco.Web Comics:

• Genres and Styles: Cut for violating Examples Are Not General.
• Chugworth Academy: Cut. Too obscure.
• CTRL+ALT+DEL: Cut. While audiences definitely abandoned it after all the shark-jumping moments listed, I see no evidence that there was ever a true retroactive backlash, as opposed to an already-extant Hate Dom that kept complaining after everyone else got bored.
• Megatokyo: If the entry is accurate, keep. It hits the points that need hitting.
• That's My Sonic: Cut. Does not make a good case for initial popularity.
• Other M: Cut. Does not make a good case for initial popularity.
• Schlock Mercenary in-universe example: Keep, but tweak the entry to specify that it's an example of a Discussed Trope. It sounds like it didn't actually happen in-universe, but characters discuss the concept.

After this, I think the only thing left is Anime and Manga (which has received a couple of cursory cleanup efforts but not a really organized one by the whole thread) and then we can merge the subpages into the main page and move on to cleaning wicks.

edited 9th Dec '16 8:39:11 AM by HighCrate

DeaderThanDisco.Toys

• Realistic looking toy guns: Cut. There's no retroactive universal backlash, just increasing concerns about safety, which still has a bit of resistance. There are also way too many "buts" in the example.
• Toy soldiers: Cut. They still exist.
• Bratz dolls: Cut. They were always controversal, which was why they didn't have any staying power, especially when other alternatives showed up.
• Lawn Darts: Cut. Maybe a little less shoehorn than the guns, but still mainly about safety.
• Sea Monkeys: Fence, for the sole reason of the one exception mentioned. Otherwise keep.
• LJN Toys: Cut. I don't see any evidence they weren't disliked for those games to begin with.
• frenzy_rumble: Cut. Not popular enough, and not retroactively hated enough.

DeaderThanDisco.Web Comics

• Genres: Cut. If anything started early enough gets a pass, there's no retroactive backlash.
• Chugworth Academy: Cut. Example doesn't describe retroactive backlash.
• Ctrl+Alt+Del: Cut. If it still exists, it still exists, and if it's too obscure for people to know it existed, there's not enough retroactive backlash. And tons of people hated it to begin with.
• Megatokyo: Cut. No retroactive backlash, and people moved on to better things.
• That's My Sonic: Cut. Most of it is about the author, and I don't think it was ever that popular.
• Other M: Cut. I'm not convinced it was that popular, and most of the complaints seem to be on how it developed (or didn't), rather retroactively.
• Schlock Mercenary In-Universe: Probably needs a rewrite.

Toy soldiers: cut. GI Joe is still doing okay.

Other M: cut. Controversial before release, instant backlash on launch.

• Realistic guns: Cut. safety concerns, rather than a widespead backlash, also still fond nostalgia. Not to mention airsoft and paintball guns.
• Toy soldiers based on historical war: Cut. Still available, still popular, no backlash
• Bratz: Cut. Hatedom outlasted the fandom, but no widespread backlash.
• Lawn darts: Cut. No backlash, still fond nostalgia by many people who are old enough to have had them.
• Sea monkeys:Cut: They're still being sold. No backlash
• LJN toys: Cut. Not enough widespread inescapable popularity. I looked at it and said "Who?"
• The Transformers customizer Cut Fails the "inescapable popularity test. He may have been huge in his area, but that was a very small niche area.. .

And Deader Than Disco.Web Comics:

• Genres and Styles: Cut for violating Examples Are Not General.
• Chugworth Academy: Cut. Too obscure.
• CTRL+ALT+DEL: Cut. Hatedom persisted when fandom left. Also, was easily avoidable even in its heyday
• Megatokyo: 'If the entry is accurate, keep. It hits the points that need hitting. I never read it and wasn't very interested in webcomics, and even I remember hearing about it regularly.
• That's My Sonic: Cut. No indication of "inescapable popularity".
• Other M: Cut. No indication of "inescapable popularity".

• Schlock Mercenary in-universe example: 'Cut They name-drop the phrase, but not the way we're using it as a trope. So it's a stock phrase use, not a trope use.

edited 9th Dec '16 10:50:45 AM by Madrugada

Toys:

• "realistic" guns: not exactly dead, and not exactly a backlash. Cut.
• toy soldiers: not even close. Cut.
• Bratz: Hmm. I know they were really popular for a while, and I know there was a backlash. But I didn't pay that much attention and the description doesn't really make the case properly. For now, I'll say Fence.
• Lawn Darts. Not the right sort of backlash. Cut.
• Sea Monkeys. They're still around, believe it or not. And the disappointment dates back to their heyday. I have to say cut.
• LJN Toys: not seeing proper backlash. Despite the minor controversy, sounds more like a case of acquired and retired. Cut.
• frenzy_rumble: outcompeted. No actual backlash. Cut.

Web Comic:

• General: general, so Cut.
• Chugworth Academy: no real backlash. Cut.
• CTRL+ALT+DEL: tricky. Doesn't really describe a backlash, but sort of hints at one. Without more knowledge, I'm going to say Fence.
• Megatokyo: really no signs of a backlash. Sounds more like fading away/the market passed it by. Cut.
• That's My Sonic: minor popularity, no real backlash. Cut.
• Other M: minor popularity, no real backlash. Cut.
• Shlock Mercenary: in-universe mention of the name, doesn't fit the trope. Cut.

Toys

• Toys that resemble real life firearms: Cut. This is more due to safety concerns than backlash, and there is still some nostalgia for them.
• Toy soldiers based on historical war: Cut. Little green army men are still seen as classic toys.
• Bratz: Cut. These dolls have been controversial since the beginning.
• Lawn Darts: Cut. This is more about safety concerns than backlash.
• Sea Monkeys: Fence, because of that one moment of glory the entry describes.
• LJN Toys: Cut. Too obscure.
• frenzy_rumble: Fence. While backlash is described, I don't know enough about Transformers to know how accurate this entry is.

Webcomics:

• Genres and Styles: Cut. Examples Are Not General.
• Chugworth Academy: Cut. Does not establish retroactive backlash.
• Ctrl+Alt+Del: Cut as written. While this comic is a complete punchline today, if it always had a significant hatedom, it does not qualify as DTD.
• Megatokyo: Keep if entry is accurate.
• That's My Sonic: Cut. Wasn't that popular to begin with.
• Other M: Cut. Wasn't that popular to begin with.
• Shlock Mercenary In-Universe example: Keep, but refer to it as a discussed trope.

I agree that Anime and Manga could use another look. After skimming through that page, I can tell some of the examples don't qualify.

Throwing in thoughts — in short, cut both subpages:

edited 9th Dec '16 3:04:14 PM by crazyrabbits

I'll chip in for the toys.

• Real looking firearm toys: Cut. Safety precautions and social concerns =/= backlash.
• Toy soldiers based on real wars: Cut. No backlash and the situation the example was giving feels more like changing perspectives over time.
• Bratz: Cut. Example doesn't describe a backlash and they were always hated for their designs.
• Lawn Darts: Cut. Were they even popular to begin with? The example isn't very clear on that.
• Sea Monkeys: Fence, leaning towards keep. It does describe initial popularity and retroacted backlash, but the example could use a rewrite to explain why they were popular in the first place.
• LJN Toys: Cut. They were never super popular to begin with and The Angry Video Game Nerd is probably the only reason why people seem to know of their existence, if only for their video games.
• frenzy_rumble: Cut. Come again?

I think we can also shoot the Web Comics page down.

DeaderThanDisco.Toys votes:

• Realistic guns:
  • Cut: High Crate, Another Duck, Madrugada, Xtifr, A Drago, crazyrabbits, Packer
• Toy soldiers based on historical war:
  • Cut: High Crate, Another Duck, R Alexa21th, Madrugada, Xtifr, A Drago, crazyrabbits, Packer
• Bratz:
  • Fence: Xtifr
  • Cut: High Crate, Another Duck, Madrugada, A Drago, crazyrabbits, Packer
• Lawn darts:
  • Cut: High Crate, Another Duck, Madrugada, A Drago, crazyrabbits, Packer
• Sea monkeys:
  • Keep: High Crate
  • Fence: Another Duck, A Drago, Packer
  • Cut: Madrugada, Xtifr, crazyrabbits
• LJN toys:
  • Cut: High Crate, Another Duck, Madrugada, Xtifr, A Drago, crazyrabbits, Packer
• Some Transformers thing?:
  • Fence: A Drago
  • Cut: High Crate, Another Duck, Madrugada, Xtifr, crazyrabbits, Packer

And DeaderThanDisco.Web Comics:

• Genres and Styles:
  • Cut: High Crate, Another Duck, Madrugada, Xtifr, A Drago, crazyrabbits, Packer
• Chugworth Academy:
  • Cut: High Crate, Another Duck, Madrugada, Xtifr, A Drago, crazyrabbits, Packer
• CTRL+ALT+DEL:
  • Fence: Xtifr
  • Cut: High Crate, Another Duck, Madrugada, A Drago, crazyrabbits, Packer
• Megatokyo:
  • Keep: A Drago
  • Fence: High Crate
  • Cut: Another Duck, Xtifr, crazyrabbits, Packer
• That's My Sonic:
  • Cut: High Crate, Another Duck, Madrugada, Xtifr, A Drago, crazyrabbits, Packer
• Other M:
  • Cut: High Crate, Another Duck, R Alexa21th, Madrugada, Xtifr, A Drago, crazyrabbits, Packer
• Schlock Mercenary in-universe example:
  • Keep: A Drago
  • Fence: High Crate, Another Duck
  • Cut: Madrugada, Xtifr, crazyrabbits, Packer

Consensus runs "cut" on all examples, overwhelmingly in most cases. Submitting both pages to the cutlist.

Final example subpage, everybody! DeaderThanDisco.Anime And Manga:

Companies:

• 4kids: Fence. They really were inescapably huge for a long time, and they certainly have become near-universally derided. The only strike against them is that a lot of people still have fond memories of their Pokemon dub, Bowdlerization, Americanization, and all.
• Streamline Pictures: Cut. Does not establish initial ubiquity or retroactive backlash.
• Tokyopop: Cut. I'm not convinced that anyone still cares enough about them one way or another to qualify as a retroactive backlash.
• Central Park Media: Cut. Ditto.
• Harmony Gold: Cut. Ditto.
• Manga Entertainment's UK division: Cut. Ditto.

Dubbing practices:

• Cut And Paste Translation: Cut. Too much nostalgia for the likes of Voltron and Robotech to count.
• Dub Name Change: Cut. While many if not most anime fans are against the practice on paper, there are a lot of groups where insisting on using the Japanese names for Yu-Gi-Oh or Pokemon characters will get you derided as a weeb who needs to learn to relax.

Genres:

• "traditional" Magical Girl shows: Cut. Too much nostalgia for early entries. I'm also skeptical of any genre entry that specifies "traditional" examples of the genre; that tends to be a codeword for "Changed-er Than Disco". An example that successfully modernizes and keeps up with the times is not a valid example.
• "TV adaptations of shoujo manga": Cut. The presence of Weasel Words ("seems to be headed this way") runs counter to Examples Are Not Arguable / Don't Speculate, Don't Prognosticate.

Series:

• Inuyasha: Fence. It was certainly huge back in the day and it certainly gets its fair share of snark nowadays, but I'm not sure if it still has enough of a fanbase to disqualify it.
• Gundam SEED: Cut. Entry reads as veiled Jumping the Shark / Seasonal Rot.
• Digimon Adventure 02: Cut. If it's Love It or Hate It, that means it has too many defenders to count.
• Love Hina: Cut. My personal experience suggests that there are still plenty of people who consider it a classic of the genre.
• Infinite Stratos: Cut. Too obscure.
• Haruhi: Cut. There are still plenty of fans out there.
• Chobits: Cut. Entry is a stub that does a poor job making its case.
• Tsubasa: Cut. Entry reads as veiled Jumping the Shark / Seasonal Rot, and it was never exactly inescapable even at its height.
• Bunny Drop: Cut. Too obscure.
• Air: Cut. Too obscure.
• Mermaid Melody: Cut. Too obscure.
• Oreimo: Cut. Too obscure.
• Shugo Chara: Cut. Describes fall into obscurity, not backlash.
• Vampire Knight: Cut. "Forgotten" =/= backlash.
• Hot Gimmick: Cut. Too obscure.
• Lucky Star: Cut. Too obscure. Also "mainstream otaku" is an oxymoron.
• Katekyo Hitman Reborn: Cut. Describes obscurity, not backlash.
• Soul Eater: Cut. Don't Speculate, Don't Prognosticate. It might not be the new hotness any more, but there's been no real backlash.
• Eiken: Cut. Too obscure. It was never actually the "smash hit" the entry claims.
• Blood: Cut. Was never inescapably popular, and entry describes a slip into obscurity, not true retroactive backlash.
• Nekojiru: Cut. Entry admits that it's obscure.
• Hunter x Hunter 1999: Cut. Entry admits that it's obscure.
• Dic's Sailor Moon adaptation: Cut. There's still nostalgia for it, goofy 90's-ass Sailor Says segments and all.
• Bleach: I think the last time this came up I was in favor of cutting it, but honestly I think I've come around since then. Truth is, nobody seems to be warming up to it in retrospect; the backlash against it seems to be sticking around. I say keep.

The biggest problem with this page, I think, is Fan Myopia. I consider myself pretty involved in the anime fandom, I go to an average of 2-3 anime conventions a year, and the most I could tell you about most of the entries on this page is that they exist. Very few of them meet the inescapable-popularity standards of DTD, even within the anime fandom.

edited 12th Dec '16 8:31:33 AM by HighCrate

Keep 4kids. I don't know enough to tackle the rest.

Anime and Manga: I have not got enough knowledge of the topic to contribute intelligently.

Then may we go back to Music for a bit, please? I wasn't around for that discussion and I'd like to weigh in, if I may

General:

• Charity Motivation Songs. CUT or note that it's only dead in America, but I lean toward Cutting entirely. : The example itself says:"While the UK, who brought us "Do They Know" many years earlier, has continued to pump out multi-artist charity singles, many of which went to #1. The American ones sound like critical failures, but I don't recall a widespread public backlash against them. Also, they weren't a widespread, inescapable phenomenon while they lasted.

Male singers:

• Pat Boone CUT No widespread backlash, in fact fond nostalgia among the people who were around when he was big; and he was no more Inescapable than any other popular singer then or now. "He has a cult following among metalheads for his album In a Metal Mood: No More Mr. Nice Guy, which featured covers of classic metal songs in his big-band style. (Ronnie James Dio even sang backing vocals on Boone's cover of "Holy Diver"!)

• Liberace, CUT No Widespread Backlash, just the waning of his fanbase with age.

Bands:

• Jonas Brothers: CUT: It doesn't sound like a widespread backlash as much as the fans growing up and the hatedom persisting.

(edited to remove the ones I vote for keeping.)

edited 12th Dec '16 8:43:51 AM by Madrugada

Traditional Magical Girl anime: cut. Sailor Moon still has a devoted fanbase. Even the West still makes shows like this.

TV adaptation of shoujo manga: cut. I see quite a few popular shoujo adaptations recently.

edited 12th Dec '16 8:34:46 AM by RAlexa21th

Madrugada: There's no need to bring up examples where you agree with the consensus already in place. The thread is already in favor of (for example) keeping Milli Vanilli. You're preaching to the choir on a lot of those.

Noted and edited to reflect that. Was sleepy when I wrote it. I'm going back to bed now..

DeaderThanDisco.Anime And Manga

Companies

• 4Kids: Fence. Not my area, since it's an American thing. Most of the hate seem to be about how it became, and not what they became famous for.
• Streamline Pictures: Cut. Doesn't make a strong argument for actual retroactive hatred.
• Tokyopop: Cut. "Mediocre translation" is kind of lukewarm.
• Central Park Media: Cut. Seems more to have fallen from grace than any universal hatred.
• Harmony Gold: Cut. Not dead.
• Manga Entertainment: Cut. Crap writeup.

Dubbing Practices

• Cut-and-Paste Translation: Cut. Example admits it's still around. Widely hated, but not dead.
• Dub Name Change: Cut. Still used.

Genres

• Magical Girl: Cut. Still alive.
• TV anime adaptations of shoujo manga: Cut. "Seem to be heading this way"? So it's not there yet? Also, still exists.

Individual Series

• InuYasha: Cut. Most of it is about the fans, not the show, and it.
• Mobile Suit Gundam SEED: Cut. Not familiar with the franchise, but the example admits there are people who love it.
• Digimon Adventure 02: Cut. Controversal with people defending it, not completely dead.
• Love Hina: Cut. While there are a lot of people who hate it, I don't it's entirely devoid of fans.
• Infinite Stratos: Cut. While it's not a lot, at least a few of the characters have a lot of fans. Laura and Charles in particular.
• Haruhi Suzumiya: Cut. Still has fans. Huge nosedive, sure, but not entirely dead.
• Chobits: Fence. It's probably accurate, but the example is poorly written.
• Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle: Fence. Not familiar enough, and I've not heard of any hatred.
• Bunny Drop: Keep. Example covers the essentials.
• Air: Cut. Still has some fans.
• Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch: Fence, leaning cut. Example specifically points to a subset of the fanbase.
• Oreimo: Cut. As long as the genre has fans, there are fans of this.
• Shugo Chara!: Cut. Claims obscurity rather than hatred, and there are still fans.
• Vampire Knight: Cut. Fell out of favour, but nothing retroactive.
• Hot Gimmick: Fence. Example makes a decent case, but I'm not sure it was ever that popular.
• Lucky Star: Cut. Doesn't seem entirely devoid of fans.
• Katekyo Hitman Reborn! : Cut. Seems more forgotten than disliked.
• Soul Eater: Cut. Example doesn't make a good case for retroactive hatred.
• Eiken: Fence, leaning cut. It always had people mocking it.
• Blood franchise: Cut. Franchise isn't widely hated.
• Nekojiru: Cut. Makes a poor argument for being very popular.
• Hunter × Hunter: Cut. Still seems popular enough to have debates about which version is better.
• DiC's adaptation of Sailor Moon: Keep, but should be a little more clear in the beginning that it's about that specific adaptation, rather than the main franchise.
• Bleach: Fence. Still see the occasional cosplay, but I never liked it, so I'm kinda biased.

At some point, we're going to have to look at the wicks, too. I just cut an example from a Music/ page that was basically, "the band used to mock disco at their shows."

Chiming in with Anime thoughts:

edited 12th Dec '16 12:40:52 PM by crazyrabbits

^^ Yeah, that'll be the next order of business after getting the example subpages in order I should think. There are just under 700 of them to go through; we can probably just go ahead and cut the most obvious misuse and only bring the edge cases to the thread for input.

So... about people saying "Cut the Transformers example because I haven't heard of him," that makes me ask if there can be fandom-specific DTD examples. Yeah, the average internet-goer won't know of him (or anything Transformers-related), but if he's "inescapably popular within the fandom," would he be a potential qualifier?

If "inescapably popular within a certain fandom" is not enough to qualify, then go ahead and cut. If it is, then keep it and I can flesh it out/clarify some (there's definitely some missing data there).

I'd be real careful with that, because a "fandom" can be so narrow as to make it impossible to verify that it's a valid audience reaction as opposed to a Single-Issue Wonk complaining. It can also open it up to a No True Scotsman problem where people claim that if you DO like this or DON'T like that, you're a filthy casual and not a "real" fan.

As a rule of thumb, the narrower the fandom an example is supposedly within, the more suspicious I am. A very broad fandom like "anime" or "video games"? Sure, okay. A medium-sized one like "Star Wars," where most people are familiar with the franchise and have probably watched some of the most popular works within it but fewer would consider themselves superfans? That's walking the edge. A relatively narrow one like "My Little Pony" or "Transformers"? I'd say no to that.

edited 12th Dec '16 1:48:52 PM by HighCrate

To some degree I would say there can be fandom-specific examples. Otherwise the vast majority would be cut, since most categories are only known by a subset of people. Tons of people don't watch anime, play video games, or listen to music. I would say that the narrower the fandom, the more inescapable they have to be. A fandom for a specific franchise would probably have to apply across the entire franchise, and I'm not sure that's the case here, since it would also have to touch casual fans.