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Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#101: May 18th 2016 at 7:22:41 AM

Found the article in question. By a professor no less. It's also pointed out that this backlash against perceived coddling has been around for over 20 years now, although probably with less overt bigotry then.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
PotatoesRock The Potato's Choice Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I know
The Potato's Choice
#102: Jun 9th 2016 at 6:59:19 AM

15 Reasons Why Young People Today Have It Tougher Than Ever

Cracked, but the charts basically argue:

  • There's a huge lack of jobs filled because the country emphasized college too much instead of treating college and trade schools as respectable avenues. (A lot of jobs demanded require trade school training)
  • Businesses won't hire people under 35 typically fear to lack of company loyalty and general inexperience.
  • Compounding with Student Debt is basically predatory Credit Card Loan practices.
  • The ballooning costs of College tuition.
  • Companies prefer to retain and promote older workers, thus keeping younger workers in Unemployment or Entry Level Work.
  • Millennials are generally found to be incredibly stressed.

Cross Posted from Economics Thread.

Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. - Douglas Adams
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#103: Jun 9th 2016 at 8:06:52 AM

oh I got into several arguments with people about them brining up the so called "safe spaces" on that article... good times

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NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#104: Jun 9th 2016 at 8:33:53 AM

Human history consisted of guys sending their subordinates to war usually because someone insulted them/their family

Atrocities were committed like slapping/raping your wife for insulting you with said insult being she dared didn't fall in line with her wifely duties. Legal lynching for minorities for minority because they insulted you by thinking themselves as your equal.

And yet.... simply COMPLAINING about someone being a straight up dick to you is considered thin skinned

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#105: Jun 9th 2016 at 8:45:26 AM

Interesting little bits from the Editor of the New Statesman magazine:

I was recently a guest at a dinner at ­Oxford’s Blavatnik School of Government. Two formidable women hosted it: Ngaire Woods, the founding dean of the school, and Louise Richardson, who is a ­political scientist and the 272nd vice-chancellor of Oxford University but the first woman to hold the position. I sat next to her and we spoke, among other things, about the new code of censorship operating among students. In her appearance on Desert Island Discs last week, Professor Richardson, who is Irish, expressed bewilderment at the attitude of many students.

“I’ve tried to understand it,” she said. “Students and young people today, because of social media, operate in an echo chamber of like-minded people and are less exposed to contrary views . . . But a university is exactly where you should hear these views, and part of education is about hearing them and countering them reasonably.”

Her comments made me think about ­Malia Bouattia, the new leader of the National Union of Students, who is an advocate of “no-platforming” and has stated that Muslim students are being spied on by the state. We have tried to speak to her about her positions and the new culture of campus intolerance that has led even to the likes of Germaine Greer and Peter Tatchell being “no-platformed”. So far, she has remained bashfully elusive. But perhaps if Ms Bouattia or one of her colleagues is reading this, she will get in touch. The invitation for her to write our weekly Diary remains open.

Age becomes them

On Desert Island Discs, Louise Richardson also said that this generation of students “has been more cosseted by their parents than earlier generations”. This was certainly the view of Jean Twenge, the American ­author of the book Generation Me, when I interviewed her for a Radio 4 Analysis documentary I’ve made exploring the attitudes and behaviour of this millennial generation – at the NS, we’ve called them the “New Young Fogeys”. For the programme, my producer, Katie Inman, persuaded me not only to retrace my journey to school, which most mornings meant negotiating a way through an intimidating group of schoolboy smokers gathered at the bottom of a narrow alleyway between two gardens, but return to my old sixth-form college in Essex. In conversation with some of the students, I was struck by how much less free they seemed than I was at their age. Less free to make mistakes, to take risks, perhaps because they are so aware of the consequences of behaving badly. It wasn’t adventure or rebellion they sought – but order and security. If they were fogeyish in attitude, it was, one of them said, because “social and financial pressures” had made them so.

Keep Rolling On
Elfive Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#106: Jun 9th 2016 at 8:50:38 AM

Safe spaces are fine, but you can't live you whole life in a bunker.

FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#107: Jun 9th 2016 at 8:57:26 AM

the state have spied on elected members of parliament before, I wouldn't put spying on people due to their faith beyond them

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Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#108: Jun 9th 2016 at 9:27:15 AM

[up][up]I doubt that's a viewpoint anyone actually espouses?

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#109: Jun 9th 2016 at 10:22:30 AM

What are these safe spaces that you guys keep talking about?

"The acting imperial viceroy of Doma, Yotsuyu's grace and beauty belie a heart of stone."
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#110: Jun 9th 2016 at 10:27:56 AM

Universities.

Keep Rolling On
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#111: Jun 9th 2016 at 10:31:50 AM

[up] That is odd considering that Universities are schools that teach about the subjects you need for the real world. I maybe wrong about that but I know when I was in school I never was in a safe space.

"The acting imperial viceroy of Doma, Yotsuyu's grace and beauty belie a heart of stone."
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#112: Jun 9th 2016 at 10:32:46 AM

[up][up][up]I'll just go dump the RationalWiki definition here.

Much like the trigger warning, safe spaces are meant to provide a degree of shelter from emotional trauma. Safe spaces are public "spaces" for people to feel "safe" in, without needing to fear about being judged or subject to offensive persons and material. Safe spaces would include groups like LGBTQ meetings, student unions comprised of minority races, rape victim support clubs, and other activities that involve intimate personal knowledge, sharing and understanding, and where any comments formed out of prejudice and/or ignorance are called out. For instance, if someone has been a victim of rape, and they want the comfort of being in an area where they can share their experiences with other sympathetic people who have been through the same thing, it is not exactly unreasonable that they would not want to be subject to someone deliberately stirring up trouble by victim blaming her and insisting that rape culture does not exist. Similarly, it's not unreasonable for black students to have areas they can go to where they will not have to hear themselves being repeatedly referred to in blatantly racist terms.

Some proponents of safe spaces, however, can seem to infantilize young adults on university campuses. For instance, when Brown scheduled a debate that would likely include criticism of the term “rape culture,” a competing talk was held and announced as a "'safe space' [that] would be available for anyone who found the debate too upsetting." For some, the underlying conviction supporting safe spaces in universities seems to be that they "should keep [students] from being 'bombarded' by discomfiting or distressing viewpoints", particularly viewpoints that originate from, and contribute to, an existing system of oppression against the individuals, and thus are neither new ideas nor original.

[up]If you have any idea as to what purpose exactly a course on "Islamic and Asian civilisations" does in "the real world" for people with zero interest in history save for complaining that Japan got off too easy for World War II, feel free to educate me.

Also this.

edited 9th Jun '16 10:37:43 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#113: Jun 9th 2016 at 10:43:48 AM

[up] So Safe Spaces are forums for people where they can talk about social issues without being ridiculed?

"The acting imperial viceroy of Doma, Yotsuyu's grace and beauty belie a heart of stone."
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#114: Jun 9th 2016 at 10:56:36 AM

Or pretty much anything someone wants to discuss without having ridicule or vitriol flung their way, really. There are a lot of venues online and offline that can be technically considered safe spaces due to how they're run - for example some of the more prominent subreddits dedicated to bigotry will ban you and scrub your comment calling them out on their bigotry for good measure. While complaining that safe spaces meaning that they can't get away with overt bigotry anymore.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#115: Jun 9th 2016 at 11:11:45 AM

[up] That is kind of ironic when you think about it.

"The acting imperial viceroy of Doma, Yotsuyu's grace and beauty belie a heart of stone."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#116: Jun 9th 2016 at 12:18:22 PM

Safe spaces aren't normal for debate, they're for healing and security. So often it's not just about shutting bigots out, but also about suspending academic debate so that traumatised people can feel safe.

That works fine for a space that's say one room/meeting that a person can go to, it falls apart when you try and aplly it to an entire academic setting as a few people have tried.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#117: Jun 12th 2016 at 1:06:55 PM

[up] I guess that makes sense considering that academia is all about challenging and debating ideas as opposed to just discussing them. I wonder if my generation still believe in corporal punishment?

"The acting imperial viceroy of Doma, Yotsuyu's grace and beauty belie a heart of stone."
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#118: Jun 12th 2016 at 1:10:47 PM

[up]I do.

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#119: Jun 27th 2016 at 8:56:27 AM

As far as the political future of Generation Y goes, given the generation's defining experience has been the second worst economic meltdown in modern history, it's not surprising that we're seeing political developments similar to the generation that came of age during the great depression. Which is to say a major resurgence of both nationalist and leftist ideologies.

[up] Can you find any contemporary studies that support this point of view, especially when it's taken beyond literal slaps on the wrist?

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#120: Jun 27th 2016 at 9:00:17 AM

[up]

Which is to say a major resurgence of both nationalist and leftist ideologies.

And combinations of the two?

edited 27th Jun '16 9:02:23 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#121: Jun 27th 2016 at 11:01:04 AM

[up][up]I don't have studies on-hand ATM (I'm not 100% where I'd even look), but personal anecdote (which admittingly is not very useful) suggests that it works. I was spanked as a kid (and so were my siblings), and I feel like we've grown up to be very well-mannered. People with more lenient parents, I've seen, seem to have less-well behaved kids. Again, that's simple personal anecdote which isn't very persuasive.

On a more theoretical note: the purpose of punishment is to cause a certain amount of temporary pain. Non-corporeal punishments do this indirectly (a time-out is basically micro-solitary confinement designed to cause pain in the child with isolation, claustrophobia, and boredom). Corporeal punishment is more direct-it cuts out the middle man and simply causes the pain. Therefore, among forms of punishment, corporeal punishment shouldn't necessarily be ruled out.

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#122: Jun 27th 2016 at 12:23:46 PM

Well the logical conclusion of corporal punishment and military schools is Donald Trump, who got sent to a military school.

The problem with corporal punishment is that you're teaching kids that violence is the solution, belive me they're listening when you tell them that.

You may have turned out fine anyway, and kids who weren't may have turned out bad, but that's because of your parenting and environment as a whole. It's hard to work out if you are a well adjusted person because of cooperation punishment or in spite of it.

That's why we have experts, who I belive overwhelmingly belive that you'd be an even more well adjusted person if you hadn't been spanked, while the ids you know would be even less well adjusted if they had been spanked.

As for punishment being for causing pain, that right there is the problem. Is most developed societies punishment is about protection of others and rehabilitation. The idea that the goal of punishment is cause pain is a very not well adjusted idea.

edited 27th Jun '16 12:26:13 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#123: Jun 27th 2016 at 12:55:12 PM

[up]Well, on a deeper level the purpose of punishment is to cause rehabilitation through the use of pain (or rather "pain that causes rehabilitation"). If your method of rehabilitating someone doesn't involve the use of pain, then you're not punishing them but using some other form of rehabilitation (which is fine to do-though punishment is a valid tool in your kit and corporeal punishment is a valid form of punishment).

Donald Trump was sent to military school, which I'm unsure if that really qualifies as corporeal punishment's logical extreme. Regardless, Trump is probably an outlying example enough that he should be ignored.

I will admit, though, that my anecdote is only slightly better, and I'd much prefer people listen to experts more. Though, IIRC, a lot of studies done by experts ignore the difference between spanking and flat-out abuse.

edited 27th Jun '16 12:55:44 PM by Protagonist506

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#124: Jun 27th 2016 at 1:56:20 PM

If your method of rehabilitating someone doesn't involve the use of pain, then you're not punishing them but using some other form of rehabilitation (which is fine to do-though punishment is a valid tool in your kit and corporeal punishment is a valid form of punishment).
But if you can achieve the same goal with or without pain, than the pain is unecessary. Unnecessary pain is not valid (unless it is Safe, Sane, and Consensual).

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#125: Jun 27th 2016 at 3:21:10 PM

@Protagonist: A good place to start looking for studies is google scholar. A lot of stuff is going to be behind paywalls, particularly the newer stuff, but not all of it.


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