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srebak Since: Feb, 2011
#1: Dec 4th 2015 at 12:49:20 PM

A while back, i posted a thread called Writer Arrogance, which was mainly addressing the issue of a writer believing that he/she could do a better job than the ones who wrote the stories that he/she read or watched in some shape or form.

Well, this is something of the opposite; what do you do when you feel like you can't compete with writers who wrote the stories that you like?

Tolkien, Baum, C.S. Lewis and George Lucas were able to create amazing fantastical worlds/universes with their stories, complete with their own mythos, their own histories, their own numerous cultures and creatures. I'm still struggling to make the idea of an archipelago with each island belonging to certain magical creatures work.

Rowling, Riordan and were able to take already existing material and add a new feel to them to make them seem so original. I'm not entirely sure i can do that and keep it original.

Brian Jacques, Kenneth Oppel and Kathryn Lasky were able to give the animal Kingdom its own unique world, history and mythos. I'm not sure i ever can do that.

Riordan, Tolkien, Lewis, Lucas, Jacques, Oppel and Lasky were able to have large scale wars and battles take place in their books with massive and powerful armies fighting them. But my Fantasy story is basically just a group of friends hopping from Island to Island, dealing with one threat after another. I probably won't be able to work in an amazing battle for sometime in the future, if i'll even be able to do it at all.

and finally

Many of the authors i mentioned found some way to draw inspiration real world events and people (for example; basing their antagonistic groups/armies on the Axis Powers during WWII). It wasn't until recent years that i decided to base certain characters and their issues in my story on issues I've been having myself over the years

Any thoughts on this?

Kakai from somewhere in Europe Since: Aug, 2013
#2: Dec 4th 2015 at 1:39:41 PM

My way of dealing with this is not focusing on trying to follow in "greats"' footsteps. I probably won't be Tolkien or Lewis, but it doesn't matter, really. There's place in the world for people who write epic fantasy that will shape history of literature for years to come, and then there's place for writers who may not be on this level, but whose works are still enjoyed by a lot people. It's fine to aspire to get into the first group, but there's nothing bad in finding oneself in the other. I'm quite certain I'll never write a magnum opus that have people list my surname along with Riordan's or Lucas', so I don't worry about it. They're higher beings, I'm just a mere mortal.tongue

Moreso, remember that what we see on the shelves is rarely the author's first work. I like to repeat what I've read on Brandon Sanderson's blog once: he's written nineteen books before he finally published his work. Nineteen. So don't worry about you not being able to do things now. At the moment, you might have people hopping from island to island, having small-scale adventures, but the longer you'll write them, the better hang you'll get of it all and the easier it will get, until one day you'll sit in front of the keyboard and say something along the lines of "ah, damn, I feel like writing a huge battle scene".

edited 4th Dec '15 1:40:45 PM by Kakai

Rejoice!
Victor_Skye Hot-blooded Catholic Space Nazi from The Imperium of Man, the million worlds. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Hot-blooded Catholic Space Nazi
#3: Dec 5th 2015 at 3:43:52 AM

I take it easy, because I wouldn't be able to write under pressure at all. Currently I am still trying to think up of concepts for my world and later I would weave them together so I could create a decent plot. I always try to take little concepts from one author here and another concept from another author. Those are just ideas that pop up in my head, and I hope that if I mix them all together I'd get something original for a change.

Well, there are times that I feel like I'm trying to reach the stars itself. To feel that something is so close to your eyes but so far from your hands. Truly at times it does depress me, but if I stay like that forever then I'd always be looking at the stars and end up doing nothing. One of the reasons why I came to Tvtropes was because I wanted to meet other fellow writers who could help me, help me reach the stars.

"In the grim darkness of the future, there is only war."
Tungsten74 Since: Oct, 2013
#4: Dec 5th 2015 at 3:58:01 PM

Oh man, I have so much to say about this very topic, you don't even know. I've divided it all up into folders for ease of navigation. HOLD ONTO YOUR BUTTS PEOPLE, WE'RE GOING IN HOT

    On Worldbuilding 
Tolkien, Baum, C.S. Lewis and George Lucas were able to create amazing fantastical worlds/universes with their stories, complete with their own mythos, their own histories, their own numerous cultures and creatures. I'm still struggling to make the idea of an archipelago with each island belonging to certain magical creatures work.

  • Tolkien was an obsessive weirdo who cared more about linguistics and mythology than about building a cohesive fictional world. There are huge gaping holes in the worldbuilding of Middle Earth - parts that don't make any goddamned sense if you think about them for too long. But that hardly matters, because The Hobbit and The Lord of The Rings were compelling enough stories in themselves that no-one cared to pick apart Middle-Earth's nonsensical background.

  • Wait, who's Baum? Oh right, Google says he's the guy who wrote the Wizard of Oz. Well, it's been ages since I saw any of the movies, and I've never read his books, so I can't rightly comment on his work. Moving on!

  • While I'm fond of C.S. Lewis' fiction, calling Narnia a deep setting is downright laughable to me. Have you actually read any of the Narnia books recently? I have, and believe me, they're not the PG-13 fantasy-adventure romps Hollywood made them out to be. They are dull, awkward, stilted, badly paced and clearly written for children. The setting of Narnia itself isn't particularly coherent either - it's a loveably wonky mish-mash of every cool and fun fairytale thing Lewis could think of, coated in a thick layer of Christian allegory. It does not make sense, and it was never meant to - it was the stories and their message that were important to Lewis, not their backdrops.

  • George Lucas is a fucking hack who couldn't write his way out of a paper bag. The last time he had free reins on a film project, we got the godawful Star Wars prequels. All the work that went into making the original trilogy great came from all the other writers, designers and editors working around Lucas, pruning away all his terrible ideas until they ended up with something actually good.

As for the "setting" of Star Wars - I would like to point out that none of the original trilogy films gave a rat's ass about the wider world outside the core cast. Those films succeeded on the quality of their drama and characters, not on the depth of their worldbuilding. You said it yourself in your own post - so much of the original films' style came from reusing classic icons of filmography and pop culture. It was only by the efforts of tedious nerds who insisted everything "make sense" that we got the Expanded Universe, and all the masturbatory dreck that came with it.

  • In case it's not obvious by now - your archipelago of magic creatures does not have to make 100% perfect sense if your story is solid. Worldbuilding is absolutely, totally optional to writing good fiction, fantasy or otherwise. The only elements of your setting that you need to worry about are those elements that directly relate to your story's central conflict (your story does have a central conflict, right?).

    On Originality 
Rowling, Riordan and were able to take already existing material and add a new feel to them to make them seem so original. I'm not entirely sure i can do that and keep it original.

  • I don't know about Riordan, but I'm a bit confused to see someone claim Rowling based her books on pre-existing works. As far as I'm aware, pretty much everything in the Harry Potter series sprang fresh from Rowling's imagination, and her own experiences of boarding school. Well, unless you mean all the mythical creatures included in the Potterverse, but almost all fantasy writers are guilty of that to some degree. Or if you think Rowling ripped off The Worst Witch, which, y'know, she didn't (protip: it's entirely possible for two writers to hit on the same idea without one copying the other. Especially a combo as broad and obvious as “magic school”).

  • But never mind that – what I want to impress on you is how totally, utterly pointless it is to compare your work to what came before. Truth is, all art is merely a culmination of all previous art an artist has been exposed to, filtered through the lens of their personal tastes, personality and life experiences. Don't worry about being original. Worry about being true to yourself, and making art that is true to you. Because there is no-one else on Earth who is quite like you, and no-one else on Earth who will make quite the same art as you will. So put yourself into your work, and you will achieve originality without even trying.

    On Animal Stories 
Brian Jacques, Kenneth Oppel and Kathryn Lasky were able to give the animal Kingdom its own unique world, history and mythos. I'm not sure i ever can do that.

  • I haven't read any of these folks' works, so I can't comment on them directly. But from what I know about stories with animal protagonists, the trick is simply to treat the animals like weirdly-shaped humans. Make them love, make them hate, make them chase dreams and confront reality. Make them remember the past, and fight for the future. Make them into people, and write them as you would any other characters. It's not that hard, when you get down to it.

    On Battle Scenes (Part 1) 
Riordan, Tolkien, Lewis, Lucas, Jacques, Oppel and Lasky were able to have large scale wars and battles take place in their books with massive and powerful armies fighting them. But my Fantasy story is basically just a group of friends hopping from Island to Island, dealing with one threat after another. I probably won't be able to work in an amazing battle for sometime in the future, if i'll even be able to do it at all.

  • Battles and wars are not inherently interesting. Drama is interesting. When a battle serves a story's drama, it's interesting. When a battle is included for the sake of having a battle, it's boring. If a battle wouldn't fit in your story without a lot of awkward contrivance, don't have a fucking battle.

Let me break this down for you: the heart of all storytelling is drama, right? And the heart of all drama is conflict. And conflict occurs when one or more characters have a goal that they cannot instantly and effortlessly achieve. Say a character wants a gold locket for whatever reason, but the current owner of the locket wants to keep it for themselves. Does the character try to reason with the owner, to convince them to give the locket freely? Does the character try to barter or haggle with them, to buy the locket outright? Does the character fight the owner, to claim by force what they cannot obtain by trade or gift?

This clash of character goals, and the resolution of that clash, is the core of conflict, and by extension, drama. “Fight scenes” are just the continuation of that same dramatic process, through the medium of violence. And battles are just fight scenes with greater scope.

  • The key to making fight scenes dramatic is to give the combatants clear and understandable motives for fighting. Maybe Alice thinks Bob is the Antichrist and needs to die, while Bob just wants to go on living. So Alice tries to kill Bob, and Bob fights back in self-defense. Their personalities and abilities would inform the fight as well – maybe Bob is a proficient martial artist, and Alice a frenzied nutcase with a carving knife. The stakes also need to be clear: that is, what each character stands to lose if they lose the fight. Perhaps Alice will be shamed for her failure, while Bob will (obviously) die if he fails to defend himself.

All this leads to a scenario where the audience can readily understand what's going on, and thus easily become invested in the struggles of all involved. Plus, this fight scene wouldn't be happening in a vacuum. It would exist in the broader context of the story, and so would ideally serve the story in some way. Does the fight change Bob? Does it change Alice? Does the fight establish either characters' personality? Does it introduce some new plot element? How is the fight resolved, and how does that resolution inform the story going forward?

The same is true of a battle: the audience needs to know what the two (or more) sides' goals are, what their capabilities are, and what's at stake for all involved. The battle of Helm's Deep wouldn't have been anywhere near as memorable if the audience had no idea why the Rohirrim and the Uruk-hai were fighting in the first place. Likewise, the Death Star Trench Run wouldn't have been so compelling if we didn't know what the Rebels were trying to achieve, nor would it have felt so climactic if it wasn't clear that Death Star Destroyed = Rebels Win.

    On Battle Scenes (Part 2) 
  • To bring this back to your story – as I said, you don't need a battle, if a battle wouldn't serve your story. But if you wanted one, and you wanted it to be “amazing”, you'd need to make it climactic. You'd need to build up to it, clearly establishing why the fight is happening, while putting off the ultimate resolution of the conflict for as long as possible to build tension.

Let me hash out a hypothetical plot to demonstrate, based off the few details of your story you've shared. So, your characters are a group of friends, travelling between islands populated by various magical creatures. Now, I'm going to assume that these friends were stranded on this island chain, and are just trying to get home.

So now they have a goal. Good. Now, let's say they come to an island, with another smaller island next to it. The friends see a village of strange creatures on the small island, but they don't know if they're friendly, and they don't want to get hurt (another goal), so they decide to stop on the larger island, which looks uninhabited.

The friends make landfall, and set up camp for the night. But just as they're all drifting off to sleep, a terrible monster lumbers into their camp, and drags all of them away, save one! The lone survivor jumps on the group's raft in a panic, and puts out to sea to escape (doesn't want to get hurt, remember). Lost in the dark, he accidentally drifts into the creature village on the smaller island.

The villagers quickly wake up, and demand to know who the survivor is, and what he's doing in their village. Fearing for his life (doesn't want to get hurt), the survivor explains how he and his friends were trying to avoid the village out of fear, but the others all got carried off by a monster on the big island, while he escaped on their raft.

Moved to pity, the villagers apologise for their initial hostility, and explain that the monster kidnaps people to eat (a goal), and is the reason they shun the big island. They also explain that they know how to kill the monster, but there is no-one among them with the skill or ability/who is brave enough to do what must be done. Wishing to make their guest at home (another goal), they offer to let the survivor rest in their village as long as they need.

But the survivor wants to save his friends (goal). One young hunter, who wishes to prove himself by slaying the monster (goal), agrees to return with him to the island, and help him find the monster's lair. So the two wannabe heroes cross back to the big island, and begin their search.

Eventually, the two heroes find the monster's lair, just as the monster is leaving on some errand. Sneaking in behind the monster, the survivor finds his friends still alive and intact, but bound and helpless. It seems the monster was putting off eating them for the time being. After freeing his friends, the whole group quickly form a plan to escape the island (goal), and maybe kill the monster while they're at it (another goal). As the monster approaches, the group prepare to put their plan into action.

But the plan goes awry, and the characters are forced to adjust on the fly. Their initial plan to kill the monster falls through, so they abandon that goal and focus on just trying to escape. The friends make a run for it, but the hunter stays behind – he believes killing the monster is more important than escaping (character informing goals) as his people will be trapped on the small island forever if the monster isn't slain (clear stakes).

The friends waver, not sure whether to flee and live (selfish survival goal) or stay and fight (selfless save-the-village goal). This is an internal conflict, and the turning point in the story, where we finally see the characters' true colours. Eventually, the survivor decides that he has to repay the villagers' kindness, and decides to stand with the hunter against the monster. Moved by their friend's example, the other friends decide to stand with him.

And so the story proceeds to the final battle, with everything in place. We know why the monster is fighting (to get food, and maybe revenge against the critters that attacked it before escaping), and we know why the heroes are fighting (to free the village from the monster's terror). We even have some context for why the heroes think their cause is worth fighting for (the villagers are kind, reasonable, friendly people, who really don't deserve the monster), and so we can empathise with their decision.

Anyway, the heroes slay the monster, the village is saved, and maybe the friends receive some kind of reward from the villagers for their efforts. But they're not home yet (over-arching goal is not yet achieved), so they wave goodbye to the villagers, and set sail for the next island, and the next adventure (the story goes on).

There, plot done, with a totally justified and genuinely climactic final battle. It's not a titanic clash for the fate of the world – it's a 1v4 brawl for the fate of a pair of tiny islands. But with firm context, that brawl could provide more drama than all the Armageddons ever written. You're welcome.

    On Real-World Inspiration 
Many of the authors i mentioned found some way to draw inspiration real world events and people (for example; basing their antagonistic groups/armies on the Axis Powers during WWII). It wasn't until recent years that i decided to base certain characters and their issues in my story on issues I've been having myself over the years

  • Remember my earlier point about originality? It applies here too. Write honestly, write sincerely, write what feels true to you. New writers are told to “write what [they] know” for a reason – if you base your work on your own, real-life experiences, your work will feel “real” without even trying (so long as you keep in mind the need for drama – you're telling a story, not writing a diary).

  • Although, if you want to write about things that you haven't personally experienced, like the rise of Nazism or life under Nazi rule, I'd say go and read up on it, and read deeply. It's one thing to make your antagonists Nazi clones, but if you really want those characters to stand on their own, to stick in the mind as their own special brand of evil, you need to look into how and why the Nazi regime worked in the first place. You need to understand the economics, the sociology, the history that led to that event.

Because once you know what you need to keep, and what you can freely change, you can start mixing up the elements however you please, to make original fascists that still feel “right”. That goes for anything that you haven't personally experienced, really. Read up on it, as much as you can. Then when it comes to writing about it, you can convincingly bullshit your way through. Because that's what all fiction is, anyway – convincing bullshit, by professional bullshitters.

And yes, I know I said above about not worrying about realistic worldbuilding, but this isn't about building a realistic world – this is about building a realistic conflict. This is about ensuring that your antagonist – whether they be a person with goals or a force of nature – has actions that make sense. Characters can have stupid and insane goals, of course, but they ought to be stupid and insane by design, not by accident.

Hope you've got half an hour or so free, because I just wrote you a fucking essay.

edited 5th Dec '15 4:03:12 PM by Tungsten74

Victor_Skye Hot-blooded Catholic Space Nazi from The Imperium of Man, the million worlds. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Hot-blooded Catholic Space Nazi
#5: Dec 5th 2015 at 8:12:59 PM

I've read through it and it's worth the read. Basically that's every dramatic story in history ever written, and that sure as hell beats having to read through tons of it to get the gist of it. The essay may be long, but it answers our questions in minutes in what could take us a hell of a lot more time to observe and think about it ourselves.

Because your little essay was so concise, I decided to record this link in one of my notes.

Thanks, Tungsten. Whenever I have doubts regarding my writing, all I'll have to do is remember what you've said.

"In the grim darkness of the future, there is only war."
Last_Hussar Since: Nov, 2013
#6: Dec 6th 2015 at 5:47:34 AM

Well Tungsten, it's a good job you're here to save the day.

Watched the Special of 'Extras', where Andy Millman (Ricky Gervais) is in the Celebrity Big Brother Household. He has a 'What Have Ibecome?' moment, and delivers a rant straight to camera, as its CBB. Now although that is basically an Author Avatar there, it was so well weighted I felt crushed, and thought "I will never write that well".

Kakai from somewhere in Europe Since: Aug, 2013
#7: Dec 6th 2015 at 9:50:13 AM

[up][up][up]Tungsten, wow, just... wow. I've read it all and it's such a great thing. Thank you!

Rejoice!
shiro_okami ...can still bite Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
...can still bite
#8: Dec 6th 2015 at 11:18:05 AM

The only time I have this feeling is if I think the story is really, really good.

Tungsten74 Since: Oct, 2013
#9: Dec 7th 2015 at 4:07:38 AM

Thanks, Tungsten. Whenever I have doubts regarding my writing, all I'll have to do is remember what you've said.

I genuinely cannot tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

Victor_Skye Hot-blooded Catholic Space Nazi from The Imperium of Man, the million worlds. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Hot-blooded Catholic Space Nazi
#10: Dec 7th 2015 at 8:36:48 PM

[up] I wasn't, sometimes the people who we think are great writers have their own faults. I just refuse to analyze the stuff until somebody brings them to light. (Meh, I kind of believe what people tell me anyways...) You reminded me that everybody makes mistakes and they have flaws of their own. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and George Lucas. (I haven't really read their work, but I assumed that they were good.)

You've also taken the time and effort, (That essay was long) to address sreback's concern so I think you're a good guy.

"In the grim darkness of the future, there is only war."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#11: Dec 8th 2015 at 10:41:29 AM

I want make a comicbook ispired in series like FMA, Berserk and the Gundam franchise.

I feel like crap against the authors of those series, even Gundam who i agree who is far for perfect (Tomino use Show, Don't Tell Up To Eleven).

I just want write something who i feel epic and beautiful, i just want write using the tropes who i like but usually the real good series use the subvertions of those tropes.

I like use God Is Good but my main inspirations are Berserk and FMA.

Also the setting is a modern day-like society.

Watch me destroying my country
ironcommando smol aberration from Somewhere in space Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Abstaining
#12: Dec 8th 2015 at 1:02:42 PM

Oh man.

As an aspiring video game creator, I got hit with this hard when I saw my bro play Undertale.

That game is so good in both story and gameplay that I felt I couldn't make a good, recognizable indie game like it... or anywhere near it.

...eheh
Night The future of warfare in UC. from Jaburo Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
The future of warfare in UC.
#13: Dec 8th 2015 at 7:54:25 PM

I'm still unconvinced by your original thesis regarding Writer Arrogance. It was pretty laughable.

Tungsten's shown this one is probably a bit laughable too.

The fact you've basically driveby posted both of the threads, rather than engaging in any discussion of the ideas you've posted, inclines me to dislike you.

In short, bad sreback, no biscuit.

Nous restons ici.
Victor_Skye Hot-blooded Catholic Space Nazi from The Imperium of Man, the million worlds. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Hot-blooded Catholic Space Nazi
#14: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:14:57 PM

Meh, I've posted new topics and well... I didn't really reply to the posts back then. I probably should now?

"In the grim darkness of the future, there is only war."
KillerClowns Since: Jan, 2001
#15: Dec 10th 2015 at 6:30:03 AM

Man, this happens sometimes. The trick is to know that you don't have to be the absolute best, you just have to know what you're doing and do it well. I'm never gonna match H. P. Lovecraft in terms of raw, eldritch horror, in ability to create something alien and insidious, but I can apply it to a world more grounded in reality and with inspirations more diverse than the old racist would be willing to touch. My worldbuilding will never be on par with J. R. R. Tolkien in terms of depth, but I'm creating a world in flux, in the throes of an industrial revolution, something I think (and hope) fundamentally interesting on its own merits. I'll never be as funny as Terry Pratchett, but I may be able to beat him in creating a world that feels fundamentally different from our own, instead of one that very cleverly and brilliantly reflect our own.

edited 10th Dec '15 6:31:53 AM by KillerClowns

MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#16: Dec 14th 2015 at 3:17:30 PM

There's a comic I saw where someone was baking a cake and thought "aw the other cake is so much better than mine" whereas the person eating it thought "awesome! two cakes!"

Honestly don't worry about author inferiority. Worry about market dominance. There is room for multiple takes on a story, unless the market doesn't allow it.

Read my stories!
Wolf1066 Crazy Kiwi from New Zealand Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
Crazy Kiwi
#17: Dec 14th 2015 at 9:45:54 PM

[up]I think that illustrates it quite nicely.

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