Trope Pantheon Story thread

I am pretty sure he has already broken out of that thing. You can't keep a good man down for too long.

edited 29th Apr '16 9:04:44 PM by TPPR10

So seeing as I've been ignored again, let me ask this one more time:

Since Project: Alternate!Gentaro is a collection of about 4-5 tales, I was wondering if I can make my own trope page to gather everything about the collection (including the CMOF, CMOA, CMOH and character pages) so that it's easier to navigate. Especially since it'll help explain more of the story than just the trope pages by themselves. Any takers?

Playing Fire Emblem Fates has been quite good for me to indulge on the new MCW. And with that, I bring one trope that might become a rather underlying manner for this whole Civil War, and it seems that FE Fates deal with that as well:

Honor Before Reason

From what I've seen, the Hoshido side seems to be the on the Honor side, whereas when your honor is insulted, you strike back, preserve your honor as much as you can. This is why they, usually a peaceful nation, strikes back when Nohr initiates their invasion by getting Queen Mikoto killed. By that, I think they view the Nohr as dishonorable monsters and refuse to sully themselves with it, this is mostly viewed from Yukimura's complete distraught that the Nohrians are all monsters due to Garon ruining things and Xander unable to disobey directly in spite of promising good beforehand. From what I see... this is a display of values of honor: I think that Yukimura and the rest of the Hoshidan civilians believe that if one is considered evil, to preserve their honor is the best way: Even if it gets you killed, you MUST oppose that evil. There's no greater evil than shaming your own honor. I know this might rooted with feudal Japan mindset, but that's another topic.

On the other hand, I think the Nohrian siblings and those loyal to them are more on the 'Reason' side. Xander KNEW that if you die, everything is pointless, so it is best to be conservative, even if it means swallowing his own pride and honor. This is why he had to obey Garon, it wasn't because he's a coward that fears for his own life, for those who side with 'Honor', this is seen as a betrayal of honor, and therefore, a Dirty Coward's way. Corrin had to deal with this as well, he had to swallow his honor as a good man and play a part of being Garon's loyal servant for the sake of his eventual plan. A man who values Reason before Honor sees it okay to swallow their pride and look bad, as long as it will work out in the end.

So where does this take in MCW?

I seem to think that the team that wants to preserve the morals and punish the likes of Litchi would be more on the side of Honor, they see Terumi and Relius as evil, and for Litchi to help them, it means that she commits a crime against honor, and that makes her a monster in their eyes. The Honor they see is the 'Honor' as a 'good person' or 'vanquisher of evil'. By this, Yukari and Mitsuru are also seen as enemies of this kind of Honor. Ironically, Mitsuru helping Yukari was in the first place because of her own honor not allowing her to leave Yukari behind. However, this can be traced that the Honor side believe that there is only one type of honor everyone must abide, violations from that will mark you a monster... I'm sure that is why Joel is considered a monster for trying to save Ellie.

So this MCW has a potential to also combine about the importance of Honor. Are Honors absolute? Is the Honor they try to push okay and important, or they are trying to push their own old beliefs instead of compromising with the situation? It's a camp of "Preserve honors at all cost, never compromise, act like a Principles Zealot" against a camp of "Fuck honor, we won't worship it blindly, we will compromise and adapt depending on the situation, as long as it's within reason."

Tell me if I'm making sense in this.

edited 2nd May '16 2:32:30 AM by ChrisX

So you're saying the "good guys" need to be Lawful Stupid.

The fact this that what really defines as "honor" varies from person to person. A man might go Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right! because it isn't in their nature to leave people to die just because the brass told to abandon them. A knight would never strike a falls foe, no matter who they might be, because it would be disgraceful. Even villains can get to this. For example, Meta Knight from Kirby will always challenge Kirby to a sword duel she he's himself, even while trying to take over Dreamland and his ship is blowing up.

Heck, Honor Before Reason can be used to do less than ideals actions if it means doing what you want to do. Take Joel for example. He promised to protect Ellie and in the end of the game, they are taken in by people who want to get something what allows them to get the cure from Ellie, which would kill her, and they would do it without her concern. So which is the honorable option: Letting the girl you swore to protect die or save her even if she has the cure?

x3 Honestly don't know.

You know, I just had a thought about Joker. The Joker is likely to go with the "Keep Arakune as he is" side but he might be a little sympathetic to Litchi. After all, Litchi's relationship with Arakune does look a little like Batman's relationship with Mistah J.

A. A hero refuses to kill a crazy villain and people don't understand why.

B. The two have a sort of romantic relationship.

C. Villain says that it is too late for him.

D. Hero tries to "save" villain.

P.S Please tell me if there is anything wrong with what I've said.

Sympathy and Joker feels so wrong to me.

@TPPR: Well, thanks for telling that it might get some Unfortunate Implications. However, what I imply based on experience was that complains for those characters is that the fandom usually tries to push their brand of honor to others, and are baffled when the characters do not follow. As of the Joel example, sure enough, saving Ellie is DEFINITELY his honor. However, as far as the fandom sees it, it's considered a dishonorable action that dooms humanity in general, and thus rained with accusation of selfishness and bastardry. To the fandom, a personal honor is absolutely nothing to their honor, it's usually something close to The Needs of the Many. Everyone felt like being demanded to follow the audience/fandom honor and justice first, personal honor second (or thrown away). So that, I think, is how Joel gets accused even if he's following his own code of honor.

One of the arguments within the MCW is about the existence and importance of 'general honor', whether it is absolute or not. I would say that obsessing on either one is wrong, not just obsessing on the 'general' one, but I'd like to know how to strike balance. Which I think is the ones who stumbled upon the 'alternate world' would be like (the team led by Alucard)

Actually, from what I remember, there wasn't no guaranteed they find a cure by scooping Ellie's brain out. I think they done that before with other people. So him saving Ellie who he spend so long with might of been the good choice.

Definetely look at To Be Lawful or Good as it is related.

Note: the true correct choice is choose good, but option 3 is the right way to go about it.

edited 3rd May '16 7:12:11 PM by magnum12

@GUAE I'm thinking we get rid of the Liebertarian Movement since the were not in any story, let alone the namesake and his compatriot. At least, not so much for the latter.

Fine with that.

I actually had a plan for the movement. Especially with the Fall of the AOF storyline. Problem is that the story fiasco is still on going, and I'm thinking what to do. I'm still going to make the story, just not for a long time.

Bumping. Got some ideas to retool Operation Red Love. Much of this covers the GUAG invlovement angle.

1. The demonic Yuno is the result of Bernkastel manipulating kaekras so that only 1st world is being known, supressing knowledge of the 3rd world's existance. Think "Metafiction Shenanigans".

2. The plot is GUAE vs GUAC with a secondary plot by GUAG to destroy the Yandere Quartet from within.

3. "The Club" is having its routine round of games. The topic of kaekras comes up, mentioning the idea of "what if there was a kaekra where Yuno was different existed?" Rika gets an idea to arrange a meeting with one of Keiichi's new contacts (Alexstraza via Kibou Go) for she might know someone who could prove of use (Nozdormu).

4. Noz, Clockwork, and Hanyuu uncover timeline shenanigans regarding Yuno. They plan to make the 3rd timeline stronger, find the source of the shenanigans, and crack down on the culprit. This is part of the plot to take down the Yandere Quarter from within. Shion thinks this is develishly clever enough to work and gives her support. Yuno's gradually changing personality shows evidence of the plot working.

5. Since the top 3 alignments for yandere are Chaotic Evil, Neutral Evil, then Chaotic Neutral (thus better fit for GUAE), Terumi wins against his GUAC opponent. However, this proves to be a Pyrric Victory for shortly after his triumph, everything unravels when the curtain rises on the full extent of the GUAG's plot.

6. Yuno's full personality change happens, and she wants out of the GUAE. Via Hanyuu's contacts with Riku (who reminds her of a younger version of her husband) and his budding organization Way To the Dawn, they arrange for Yuno's extraction. Later, the Yandere Quartet is attacked by the SLS, via surprise attack from a Nydus Worm that popped up from benneath the YQ. Yuno makes her move, betraying the YQ and helping SLS attack them. Then the "trump card" comes out of the Nydus Worm......Sarah Kerrigan. Needless to say, YQ is screwed at this point and reinforcements can't help them for the Zerg Swarm has them completely cut off.

7. After the extraction, Yuno is an emotional wreck, blubbering and deeply sorry for all the horrible things her 1st world self did. Shion realizes they aren't that different (given the horrible things she's done under the influence of Hinimizawa Syndrome). Yuno and the SLS have an ice cream party where the irony of the very person the SLS was create to oppose now being their ally and all the awkwardness that ensues is completely Played for Laughs.

edited 11th May '16 5:45:56 PM by magnum12

I feel like attacking YQ would be redundant since the whole thing would fall apart. I mean:

• Yuno is Yuno.
• Kotonoha is probably the closest one I would file under Only Sane Man (at least, she has options on not going crazy) and would probably jump ship the moment she can.
• Nu-13 is currently Omnicidal Maniac so she would probably jump ship if she wanted to, feeling like YQ will do any good to her.
• No one on the team really likes Tsukuyomi.
• Scharlachrot is Brainwashed and Crazy and assuming that she would be part of the team for sake of the story, it would mean she has to get broken out of it.

The whole team is basically one to two actions away from breaking apart.

In terms of Yanderes, there's a bigger selection than just them.

We have Sekai, Mana (especially full of squick given her goals regarding her little brother), Lilith aka Halbred Chick, and eventually Yandere-chan, who would make a fantastic replacement for Yandere given Yuno's Heel–Face Turn. Two of these are either Chaotic Evil or have Chaotic Evil tendencies.

Given that the core alignment of a Yandere is Chaotic Evil (followed by Neutral Evil then Chaotic Neutral) rather than Chaotic Neutral, YQ is not exactly a good fit with GUAC, but a better one with GUAE.

Given Yuno's canon Heel–Face Turn (and not being a yandere anymore but rather merely being downgraded to "clingy"), it is fitting that Yuno no longer be a member of YQ. What better and shocking way for change to happen then for the YQ's creator to betray them and finally being able to say good bye to her past self.

Due to its intrinsic blockage of Character Development and making things stale, Status Quo Is God is an inherently bad trope, so let's not be bound to it. Personally, I think Unexplained Recovery (via connections to Ass Pull and Retcon, except in comedy where it can be part of a punchline thus Played for Laughs) is bad writing as well, but that's a side note.

edited 11th May '16 8:39:38 PM by magnum12

Maybe I should try giving the layout for the new Morality Civil War.

• Phase 1: Everything seems to be fine in the world. However, cracks were made in the beginning rather than very sudden at the moment. People who oppose bad guys and champions the safety of innocents no matter what were praised like hell, those who don't, regardless of their reservations and situations, were given jeers. Yes, this includes the nightmare of Karen/Cure Aqua, and the fall of Relius because Wesker backstabbed him. This might look like 'everyday life', and no one seemed to complain. The phase, however, ends with how a certain group seemed to 'sweet talk' both Rachel and Kokonoe, spurring them to actions. And to note, they aren't the first people to be given such.
• Phase 2: Rachel and Kokonoe make the first move by trying to steer the world to a direction where it's always constant 'hunt the bad guys', starting with trying to arrest and punish Litchi. This forms up the camp who supported Litchi and those who want to punish her for being an accessory of evil. Alucard broke away from Rachel to pursue his own business. And meanwhile... it's not just Litchi that is being under scrutiny, Yukari and Mitsuru also became targets for the crime of trying to repeat the impossible battle against Nyx, while Joel is targetted for trying to doom humanity. Bounties were put on several of these people, where 'the people demands justice'.
• Phase 3: Alucard, witnessing the madness, gathers several people to uncover the mystery behind the war. Captain America also volunteers to help, and after gaining several people to help, they discovered a portal to another dimension that might lead them to the truth. In the meantime, after awhile staving off the pursuers, it seemed that several doomsday scenarios arrive in an alarming speed. However, the 'Anti' Team, has their propaganda ready: They put on clones of the main targets (like Litchi) to act like what the people wanted, as in, toss their personal feelings aside and fight to stave off the doomsday. The 'Pro' Team, however, smells a rat...
• Phase 4: Team Cap & Alucard discovered a world where justice is decided by 'the audience' and everyone who goes against it is subjected to extreme manhunt. After meeting the ones ruling this world, the personification of 'Audience Expectation' and the one that he defeated, the personification of 'Character Freedom'... Cap & Alucard decided that blindly obeying the expectation is not the way. They have to go back, but they get the answer they wanted: Terumi found out about this world, and as he has the graces of the 'Audience Expectation' personification, he's able to leak his influence to the Pantheon and makes everyone act like trying to please the Audience Expectation... and that Rachel and Kokonoe were the first victims, it pleases him even more. Meanwhile, however, things got tense in the Pantheon as the real deal, the targetted people, face their clones and argue which one is doing the right thing. The population, however, sided with the clones, as they have been pleased. The real deals give up and were taken to receive punishment. However... the Pro team refuses to let this end...
• Phase 5: The court for the targetted ones turn out to be a rather Kangaroo Court where attempts to defend themselves were always overridden with "Why don't you just remove that thought and keep to the one justice to help people and save the world?" Before the verdict was taken, however, the pro-team crashed into the trial and snatched away the targetted ones, believing that they don't deserve such unfair treatment. This makes the 'Anti' Team declare the Pro Team criminals no better than the likes of Terumi and they have to be put down. This led to the titular Civil War. The Phase Ended just as Cap and Alucard's Team returned from their trip and found out that the war has erupted, and it's up to them to set things right.
• Phase 6: Cap and Alucard's Team stop the civil war and tell them off that they were playing right onto Terumi's hands. The three teams then confront Terumi, who boasts that in the end, he broke them all over the favors of the 'audience' and in some way he won. The two teams eventually admits their mistakes for that... and then delivers some 'punishment' to Terumi, though it won't be enough to kill him off just yet. The Pantheon then decreed that they must not be so dependent on audience expectation so there won't be any discrimination anymore.

That's what I have so far.

TPPR, you can tell me in which parts you will insert the Izanami stuff. There should be a similar running arc that goes with the third side, the splinter group who wants to 'force change' to help the targetted ones, such as killing Arakune.

Note that I am talking about the YQ as it is now. The simple fact is that once Yuno is redeemed and Scharlachrot is broken out of her brainwashing, Nu would probably leave on her own and Kotonoha wouldn't stick around with Tsukuyomi. Ultimately, the last two are in the position of becoming The Remnant to the whole thing and try to rebuilt the whole team, and that is where Yandere Squad comes to play: we actually have more Chaotic Neutral yanderes than Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil ones. At least by default.

That means we gotta include Iron Man as an "Anti". That, and audience expectations jokes about Stark's drinking tendencies with a joke about hidden compartments in his suit that store whisky (maybe mid battle).

I dunno, but 'Pro' here refer to 'The Camp who believes that characters like Litchi deserve to pursue their own interests and they deserve a hug after what turmoils they went through' while the 'Anti' here refer to 'The Camp who was like "Well FUCK THOSE, it doesn't matter to the billions and billions of innocents dying because of not stopping those evil or furthering their plans, where's your respect to them, huh?" and want these characters punished in the name of 'justice' of 'good guys prevail, bad guys are to be punished'.'

Where would Tony fall into from that? He might even get lumped into the victims side (I'm not sure) for falling for Zemo's plot and letting his emotions cloud him and got him to try and kill off Bucky...

edited 11th May '16 9:03:54 PM by ChrisX

I guess Tony would be in a good posistion to be a "Middle Ground" member. Some good antis would be Kiritsugu Emiya (though Shirou could influence him to change sides). Shirou would be a good Middle Ground.

I don't see why Tsukuyomi would have to leave. Yandere's are not above rape or other more subtle forms of manipulation regarding their love interests. Crimson Peak is a chillingly realistic depiction of a yandere from plot synopsis. Nu might actually stay in YQ since she'd love Mana's company due to Mana also being a crazed destroyer obcessed with their "brother".

List of known YQ or YS candidates.

Kotonoha: Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil Sekai: Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil, especially in the manga and bonus content with some of her yandere endings (including the infamous train scene). Nu: Chaotic Evil Tsukuyomi: Chaotic Evil Mana: Chaotic Evil Lilith: Chaotic Neutral with Chaotic Evil tendencies. Scharlachrot: Chaotic Neutral. Yubel: True Neutral If Yandere-chan makes it in (she's a solid candidate for Yandere given Yuno's redemption and her status as a Yuno Expy, Chaotic Evil

So far it seems the CE and NE members outnumber the CN members.

edited 11th May '16 9:31:19 PM by magnum12

I should point out that Mana, Pantheon-wise, is listed as "Chaotic Neutral, formerly Chaotic Evil" while in canon she is just the latter (I don't know if she is fucked up because The Virus corrupted her or not). Kotonoha is much more manageable and Sekai is on the same camp.

There is also Kamen Rider Jerk and that dog guy

edited 11th May '16 9:36:04 PM by fasoman1996

You know, I was thinking... Would the Anti-group seem rather hypocritical, at least in regards to 'Audience Expectation' part. Because I feel like there are times when being too white knight-y just makes someone look like total idiots to the audience, basically abandoning any kind of creative thinking.

Like I don't want to loop everything back to Senran Kagura, but I feel like Gessen Girls are the perfect example how "defeat evil by all cost" mentality does not work that way. When they started out, they were basically on a way to purge the world from evil, and even tried to attack the Hanzo Academy girls (who really are the heroes of the series) for simply trying to befriend people from evil faction. However, as their story went on, they realized how wrong they were on their thinking. Heck, even the man who taught this mentality realized how much of an idiot he was for trying to pass his agenda to his adopted children. Ultimately they decided to change gear, and everyone was fine.

You know, Gessen faction would probably fall into the Third faction in this whole thing. Because while they first seem like they would support the Anti-faction, they would think that they are way too much even for them, especially when they can't see the alternate option. Basically they think that unredeemable evil needs to be purged, but they know there are redeemable evil, and would rather let others take care of them. Plus, they know about what it means loosing someone important to you and moving on, so they would want others to do the same (for example, kill Arakune who has gone far too deep to be saved, but so that Litchi can move on).

(I'll return back to the Yandere thing later)

edited 11th May '16 9:37:11 PM by TPPR10

One last thing, i think that instead of using Nozdormu to investigate Yuno's tampering with time, i suggest using Chromie instead. Maintaining timelines safe is her job while Noz is the one who deals with much important stuff (Yuno is not that big of a threat to him)

Good idea. Maybe Noz tasks Chromie with this task because he's doing something for Eiki at the moment (as a foreshadowing for the dramatic bombshell regarding YVHV's true nature).

-Edit: By looking at the character page, seems Mana had issues with Shu before the virus kicked in, giving a very disturbing Slasher Smile while looking at her pregnant mother.

edited 11th May '16 10:52:41 PM by magnum12