Duplicate Trope: Vengeful Widow

This is a duplicate trope to Crusading Widower / Crusading Widow.

1. Both tropes describe the same thing: someone goes on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge after their significant other dies.

2. VW is billed as a Distaff Counterpart for CW. But CW isn't a male-only trope; it just happens a bit more often to male characters than female characters.

3. VW has 12 wicks (2 of which are an index and an image source page). Much more wicks describing widows going on a revenge use CW or its redirects (e.g. Crusading Widow has 32 wicks).

4. There's just no reason for this trope to be segregated by gender. There are no significant gender-related connotations to this trope, at least none mentioned in the pages' descriptions.

Proposition:

• Cut Vengeful Widow.
• Move examples to the Crusading Widower page.
• Change wicks to Crusading Widower / Crusading Widow.

edited 25th Jul '15 12:37:25 PM by Rjinswand

The way I see it, the distinction is not based on gender / sex, but also not splitworthy. A Crusading Widower uses the death of a spouse as a long term motivation for his actions, whereas a Vengeful Widow is simply driven to kill, which might be immediate or narrow in scope.

The Crusading Widower also uses the death as a motivation for revenge, though. If the death motivates a character to do something else (e.g., live a better life, stop drinking, paint a masterpiece, become a hero, etc.), it's not Crusading Widower — but rather, a missing supertrope that I'm currently YKTTW'ing as Love Interests Death As Motivation (feel free to check it out!).

And if you look at the Vengeful Widow examples, you'll see they're as broad as CW examples. One character wants to kill the murderers, another wants to dismantle their organisation, another becomes a vigilante fighting all criminals, and yet another wants conquer everything.

I agree that CW could be possibly split into smaller subtropes. "CW who wants to kill the murderers of their significant other" could be such a subtrope, e.g. compared to a CW who wants to bring them to justice, or a CW who wants to kill all criminals. But I'd argue that such a split has nothing to do with Vengeful Widow in its current form, anyway.

But I like the idea of creating subtropes for specific subtypes of CW, we can discuss it as well.

edited 28th Jul '15 3:06:32 AM by Rjinswand

Oh yeah, the Vengeful Widow page is terrible and needs to be cut. But there is a difference between the Roaring Rampage of Revenge Crusading Widower implies, and the less specific murderous drive stated in Vengeful Widow.

To clarify, barring misuse and going only by the descriptions of the tropes, a Crusading Widower would go on a very specific, methodical crusade of vengeance, intending to punish the dead spouse's murderers and their associates.

Vengeful Widow, on the other hand, merely kills others after the death of spouse. The victims of the widow might not even be related to the spouse's cause of death, and might not be limited in any way. The death of the spouse is a trigger for the murderous impulse, but not necessarily something the Vengeful Widow is avenging.

((But yes, it is poorly written and probably needs to be cut.))

I see what you mean. I'd say that might serve as a basis for creating a subtrope or sister trope.

Vengeful Widow's description, as it is now, is pretty minimalistic. And most examples on that page (and most wicks) are more in line with a CW's Roaring Rampage of Revenge than a random killing impulse. So if we decide to start such a trope ("character starts killing random people after their SO dies"), I'd suggest we just do it from scratch.

edited 28th Jul '15 4:17:04 AM by Rjinswand

The minimalism in the description, how it is about "a widow who is driven to kill by the loss of her husband" without describing whom she kills or how, is what leads me to the lack of specificity in whom she kills, because Crusading Widower is quite specific about the crusade.

I understand. However, the problem is that most examples and wicks don't support that definition. That's why I'd suggest rather YKTTW'ing such a trope from scratch to gather possible examples.

Anyways, I think we need to hear more opinions on Vengeful Widow before we plan on any further measures.

Any more opinions on the matter?

Current wick statistics:

• Crusading Widower: 312 wicks, 675 inbounds.
• Crusading Widow ^note (gendered redirect to Crusading Widower): 35 wicks, 0 inbounds.
• Vengeful Widow: 13 wicks, 1 inbound.

edited 20th Sep '15 4:44:52 AM by Rjinswand

Crusading Widower did say that it is not Always Male, so I'm in favor of the actions specified in the OP.

Okay so as I see it there are a couple tropes here:

• Trope 1: (Crusading Widower / Crusading Widow) Widow(er) goes on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge against those who killed their spouse.
• Trope 2: (Vengeful Widow?) Widow(er) is driven Axe-Crazy, more or less indiscriminately, to release the pain from the loss of their spouse.
• Trope 3: (Untroped?) Widow(er) swears revenge against society or evil in general because of their loss, and kills evildoers regardless of whether they had anything to do with their spouse's death. This one may not be limited to spouses.

I suggest:

1. Cutting Vengeful Widow and making the title a redirect to Crusading Widower
2. Making a YKTTW for trope 2 with a different name entirely and ykttw "Widow(er) is driven Axe-Crazy", assuming it doesn't already exist in some other trope.
3. Making another YKTTW for trope 3, again assuming it doesn't already exist as some other trope.

edited 20th Oct '15 7:43:58 PM by NoirGrimoir

You know what, I completely support this plan! This is a great idea!

A thought though: Maybe we should broaden all 3 to include not just spouses, but also kids? And maybe parents? Or should those rather be sister tropes?

Dunno, I think widow(er) avenging spouse is a little different from child avenging parent and visaversa, although it's similar enough to lover avenging lover that I think that would count. In the case of spouses and lovers, there's usually an implication that the crusader won't get into another romantic relationship because they are still hung up on their old spouse/lover.

I think the first one should stay spouse/lover only but the other two could probably work for any relationship.

edited 28th Oct '15 5:50:34 PM by NoirGrimoir

I'd support a simple cut and merge into Crusading Widower.

Locking as part of the New Year's Purge.