Director Osborn or President Luthor

Between the "President Lex Luthor" storyline and the "Norman Osborn, Director of Hammer" which one do you think made more sense and was told better?

Honestly, Director Osborn made less sense, but was told better. President Luthor didn't really have any conclusion — Luthor didn't really do anything that evil and it was finally ended in the first arc of Batman/Superman kind of lamely.

Osborn, on the other hand, did a bunch of evil shit and that storyline ended with the big crossover Siege.

Luthor didn't really do anything that evil

Blame 9/11. Luthor was originally intended to be much more of a President Evil, but after the attacks on the Twin Towers and the War on Terror DC didn't want to do an ongoing storyline where the President of the USA was the most dangerous man in the world.

Eh, they could have still done something with it, like Justice League Unlimited did. Instead, it seemed like they had a storyline when he was running and then when he became President...nothing.

With Osborn, it was much more tightly focused and they had a clear storyarc and a clear ending point. Plus, Osborn was just crazier than Luthor and that's always fun.

Again, it was sort of unavoidable given the delicate political climate at the time. Osborn had the advantage of that real world dust being mostly set down when it was his turn.

I liked Director Osborn's take on Beware the Superman. He was basically Civil War retold by a writer who didn't shoot himself in the foot trying to make both sides look villainous but not too villainous.

A Zero-Tolerance policy towards super-crime up to and including vigilantism is exactly the kind of reactionary nightmare that the Stamford Disaster might bring about. On the one hand, one can see argument for and understand how it would make sense to the people enforcing it, but at the same time, goes too far the opposite direction and raises important questions about what America stands for.

Also, I disagree that crazier is better, and I think this is the main failing of both of these characters. Osborn and Luthor have potential to be great political villains, but cast all that potential aside the moment they catch a whiff of their favorite superhero, in favor of self-destructive lunacy that undermines any threat potential they ever could have had.

• LUTHOR: In conclusion, while my proposal may seem a bit harsh, I believe that you will see the logic behind—is that Superman? Hold on a moment. FIRE THE KRYPTONITE LASER!!! ARM THE DEATH BOTS! Today will be the day of Luthor!!!
• OSBORN: What my esteemed associate is trying to say is that our policies will keep the people safe. You can put your trust in—Spider-Man! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! TODAY, THE GOBLIN SHALL PREVAIL!!! MURDER KILL HAHA!

edited 22nd Jul '15 9:05:50 AM by TobiasDrake

Osborn at least has the excuse of multiple personality disorder.

Something I've been thinking about is that Osborn's promotion kind of makes sense because the world of superheroes kind of inherently requires a justice system which is much more lenient than the real world one (at least in America). Like in Osborn's specific case, he benefits from a setting in which people are Brainwashed and Crazy all the time. While in the real world an insanity defense is nearly impossible, as it has very narrow criteria, in Osborn's setting, it's a lot easier to assert "I'm not culpable because I wasn't mentally in control".

And I've also speculated that because of a desire to encourage villains to Heel–Face Turn, it's a lot easier to be paroled for crimes, perhaps to the extent of having an honor system.

That's a good point. And given how many superheroes are ex-supervillains in the Marvel Universe - especially among the Avengers - an appeal to Heel–Face Turn isn't out of the question.

It also helps that Osborn was receiving psychiatric treatment for his insanity defense. His treatment was undermined by a villainous psychiatrist seeking to create opportunities for herself, but that really just resulted in occasional lapses of crazy that he tried to keep under wraps; most of the villainous things he did as Director Osborn were committed while he was in the right mind.

edited 22nd Jul '15 10:15:06 AM by TobiasDrake

OSBORN: What my esteemed associate is trying to say is that our policies will keep the people safe. You can put your trust in—Spider-Man! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! TODAY, THE GOBLIN SHALL PREVAIL!!! MURDER KILL HAHA!

But that's what makes him so scary! During Warren Ellis's Thunderbolts run, he was just on the knife edge of sanity most of the time, slipping over the edge occasionally. Like that time he sent them to fight the Steel Spider and he keeps mistakenly called him "Spider-Man."

Actually, just read Osborn: Evil Incarcerated. It's a great book by Kelly Sue DeConnick and Emma Rios about Osborn in a secret prison...and he knows he's insane, but he's also a genius.

No, what makes him so scary is that he can watch one of his men bite the arm off a suspect and coldly approve of this behavior. What makes him scary is that Norman Osborn, in full control of his mental faculties, is a terrifying man with little regard to the personal safety of the criminals his task is to apprehend.

Calling someone Spider-Man over and over is a gag at the expense of his competency. Haha, he can't even get their names right because he's too batshit crazy to be dangerous, he's so bad at this.

Attempting to mind-rape the superhero database out of Tony Stark's brain is a horrifying deed that demonstrates the insane lengths to which he will go to carry out his mission.

edited 22nd Jul '15 10:21:14 AM by TobiasDrake

Calling someone Spider-Man over and over is a gag at the expense of his competency.

It's not a gag. It's never played for laughs. It's played completely straight.

I mean, later when Norman goes off the deep end and starts to put on his Green Goblin outfit, that's played for laughs, but at the time he was being mentally manipulated.

I mean, he is batshit insane. The fact that he is insane and a genius and in charge of one of the most powerful organizations in America is what is scary.

Insanity's not scary. It's tragic. It's a medical disorder, and people who suffer from it need help.

With medication, treatment, and lucidity there's no reason an insane person is any more dangerous than anyone else. We call these people high-functioning, and they're mostly unrecognizable from any other person.

That comics continue to demonize mental illness is one of their failings as a medium. Norman Osborn isn't dangerous because he's coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs. J. Jonah Jameson also has a mad-on for Spider-Man that seizes control of his bodily functions, and he managed to do pretty well as mayor of New York. When he poured a bunch of money into anti-Spider-Man defenses, it was hilarious. When Smythe murdered his wife, it was tragic. When those defenses actually became relevant during Spider-Island, it came right back around to hilarious.

Despite their shared anti-Spider sentiment, Jonah's always been good for a laugh, and even when played for drama, he's rarely been a sinister character. This is because Jonah's a pretty benign guy. He has a massively stupid grudge, but he means well enough.

The difference between Jameson and Osborn is the fact that Osborn is cruel, power-hungry, and loaded with newfound conviction that the superhero/supervillain dynamic is what's killing America. The madness is just icing; it's a weakness that can be exploited by his enemies, and provides nothing of value to his threat potential. Osborn was dangerous despite his psychosis, not because of it.

It's not really insanity (in a normal sense) with Osborn, although it is somewhat played for laughs.

Osborn's problem/fatal flaw is that because of the goblin serum, he's his own worst enemy. Because while Norman Osborn may be a cold and calculating evil genius, the Green Goblin just likes to blow shit up. So, the moment Osborn got power, it was a question of when, not if the Green Goblin persona would cause him to lose everything he accomplished.

I've never seen Jameson as insane. It's more like a very specific form of bigotry.

edited 22nd Jul '15 1:11:13 PM by Hodor2

Yeah. See above, re: weakness.

The Green Goblin is the Fatal Flaw that causes Osborn to drop everything he's doing and busily shoot himself in the foot, undermining any possible hope of being taken seriously as a villain. "RAAAAARGH KILL SUPERMAN" is Lex Luthor's.

Doom sometimes succumbs to his own "CURSED RIIIICHAAAARDS!!!" affliction, but he's been getting a lot better about that, which is probably why Doom is considered the definitive Evil Overlord of Marvel Comics. Unlike Osborn, he doesn't take his Richards hangup with him when he fights other characters, and his evil plots generally have to be legitimately defeated because he's rarely willing to tie his own noose.

edited 22nd Jul '15 1:16:29 PM by TobiasDrake

@Hodor: From what I remember, Oscborn's rise to power after Secret Invasion was a combination of Osborn being made a hero after being recorded getting the kill-shot on the Skrull Queen and Osborn being out of the public eye long enough for the general public to basically forget about the whole "he used to be a supervillain" thing.

Insanity's not scary. It's tragic. It's a medical disorder, and people who suffer from it need help.

Real life insanity is tragic. Fictional insanity is more than not played for scariness and creepiness.

Osborn isn't scary because he is power hungry, he's scary because he is psychotic.

edited 22nd Jul '15 1:27:23 PM by alliterator

I'll note Tobias's whole point is that fictional insanity should be tragic and more realistic, because using it as a shortcut for villain motivations demonizes those who truly suffer from it.

Indeed. Fictional insanity is going the way of female hysteria when it comes to character motivations and general behavior; and good riddance, as it's a poor excuse for stupid evil schemes and overall bad writing. Osborn's behavior can still be accounted for as an effect of the Goblin serum, if just barely. For that matter, as post-Byrne Luthor basically was Osborn sans serum, ole carrot-top gets my vote here over the chrome dome. I can believe an all-but-obviously evil guy like Osborn can become head of a shady government operation; but Luthor enduring as a legally untouchable corrupt executive, never mind getting the presidency, is one of those grand misanthropic themes that not only makes no sense whatsoever, but can really make the DCU come off as the worse one to live in of the big two universes.

edited 22nd Jul '15 1:56:15 PM by indiana404

Dissociative Identity Disorder is another one of those real life things that fiction tends to abuse. And also another thing that Norman Osborn has apparently.

I believe Warren Ellis actually started writing Moon Knight simply to go in an "correct" his DID - Ellis knows someone with DID and he said if he ever had the chance, he would explain that Moon Knight doesn't actually have DID and explain it some other way, which is what he did. (His explanation: Moon Knight's brain was actually colonized by an outerterrestial entity, Khonshu, that manifested as three different people.)

edited 22nd Jul '15 1:57:42 PM by alliterator

i think the bigger problem is that "insanity" isn't a medical diagnosis anymore. it's just an umbrella term to describe a variety of mental illnesses.

most "insane" people like the joker are perfectly lucid and aware of what they're doing. they're just cruel, sociopathic and depraved.

@18- I think the problem with Osborn's case is that while it is very plausible that the government/an organization would seek the services of a shady but intelligent person, it is less so that that person would actually be appointed the head of a government agency. It would be like making Osama bin Laden the head of Homeland Security because he's an expert on terrorism.

Conversely, although Luthor does enough openly evil stuff to squander it, he at least starts out as a sort of Tony Stark/Elon Musk type- charismatic genius billionaire. And so in his case, the problem is not that popularity in itself, it's that the guy would have squandered good will prior to his campaign.

edited 22nd Jul '15 2:03:24 PM by Hodor2

1) Osborn may have started out tragic, but post-Clone Saga he's been depicted as being utterly irredeemable and unsympathetic. Before retcon after retcon it was a total Jekyl and Hyde thing. Osborn may have not been the greatest father or the most sincere and honest business man but he did it all to be a success and provide for him and his son. The makings of the Goblin had already been present but Osborn was still a decent man before Harry tampered with the serum and Osborn became the Goblin.

Nowadays following the death of Gwen Stacy, having sex with her, proto goblin, apparently somehow masterminding the clone saga, and possibly killing a baby, Osborn is vile. He is no longer sympathetic. Even after Gwen Stacy you could argue he wasn't in control of his actions. Osborn however is crazy now. He couldn't think straight and still can't. He is messed up after all of these retcons you simply can't vouch for anything good in him anymore.

2) Osborn being the Green Goblin had been public knowledge for months. The guy attacked his own arraignment with pumpkin bombs on live television. I don't recall Luthor ever doing something like that. He's been way more discreet in his deeds than Osborn.

The main problem with Norman Osborn is writers try too hard to make him Lex Luthor and the Joker at the same time.

I don't recall Luthor ever doing something like that. He's been way more discreet in his deeds than Osborn.

Well, he DID blow huge parts of Metropolis when he was dying of Kryptonite poisoning, and that was public knowledge... but after coming back he blamed it on a clone.

edited 22nd Jul '15 6:20:16 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Ah, I'd forgotten about that. Of course, Luthor was able to fool the public into thinking he was framed. Osborn had no such alibi.

Which is funny considering Osborn DID mastermind the clone saga. You'd think he'd been able to cook up a similar excuse.