Does the DCAU still hold up?

Let's be honest here. I've never seen people try to pretend that the DCAU didn't have its problems. (There are a couple of episodes that you will never see anyone defend, ever.) I'm fairly certain we all know about the fluctuating animation quality of Batman TAS alone.

Now, more modern action cartoons... That's another story.

To be honest, i will say that for me at least, Static Shock doesnt hold up, but then again, i never saw enough episodes to give it a fair chance, but what i saw wasnt that appealing to me. Maybe if i saw what are considered the "best" episodes, i'd change my mind, and i do admit that i liked Static in the time travel episode of JLU, so its nothing against the character, the show just seems too "late 90s/early 2000s" as opposed to the more timeless nature of the other shows.

Overall I'd say it does.

Looking back without nostalgia goggles on, for me there's a couple of stand out issues that take away from everything they did and the wonderful universe they built.

The character design that existed for most of the time the DCAU was around was incongruent with the writing and tone they were going for. The few shows that skewed younger, Zeta and Static, the style fit, but in JL/JLU it did an injustice.

Superman:TAS had more forgettable episodes than not and is the weakest of the cornerstone series IMO. This is coming from a huge Superman fan. Compare the way writing in Batman:TAS both adapted stories from the comics and innovated, sending ideas and changes BACK to the comics (Harley, Freeze). Supes:TAS had the opposite effect; for good or ill they refused to touch almost anything from the then current comics (Superboy Doomsday, Conduit) nor could they adapt many classic stories because they couldn't have their Supes pushing planets. With the sole exception of the worst Supergirl costume ever, little impact was had on the comics.

I think Justice League was a little too long in coming. Once JL hit, the universe had its footing, but it came too late to maintain critical mass because many of the kids who'd grown up on the DCAU went off to college and the next batch was already more enamored with Pokemon and anime (setting the stage for Teen Titans' success).

With the sole exception of the worst Supergirl costume ever, little impact was had on the comics.

You're forgetting Mercy and Livewire.

Would the DCAU really benefit from, let's say, a more realistic character design like, say, the 90s Spider-Man cartoon had?

(The more stylized designs apparently helped Batman: TAS get away with more stuff than other action cartoons could at the time. At least, that's what they told some of the 90s Spider-Man people...)

edited 1st Jul '15 11:06:21 AM by Aldo930

Did Mercy originate in the cartoon? I know Livewire did...

In any case, neither of them are quite as famous or influential as Harley Quinn, or Mister Freeze's new backstory.

edited 1st Jul '15 1:01:48 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Yes, she debuted in the cartoon.

I don't think the art style, other than several of the TNBA redesigns (mostly Freeze, Riddler and Joker's. I actually like the TNBA look of Croc and Penguin a lot more than their BTAS looks, for instance) harms the storytelling and motifs of the DCAU— Maus tells a powerful, serious story using 'funny animals', and Spectacular Spider-Man does more with its Scott Pilgrim sense of design than Spider-Man TAS ever did with its more detailed and 'realistic' art style.

I suppose it comes from the idea that if you want to tell a serious story in animation - you have to do it in a realistic art style. (Or at least a more animesque one)

Of course, this isn't so. Much of what you mentioned proves the idea false, as well as stuff like Peace On Earth and Ringing Bell, which tell serious, powerful stories starring cute, fuzzy animals.

If the story's good enough it'll work with any art style.

The art style was revolutionary for being realistic without being cartoony. Body shapes was simplified but proportions were well adhered to, such as the length of limbs, shape of torso and the size of heads and eyes. In contrast, the character designs for the 90's Spiderman The Animated Series and X Men tried to be more realistic in that they had muscle shape and tone, but the result is like a lot of anime, fantastic still frames but very stilted character animation.

Another thing too, was that Warner Brothers animation had a lot more money to put into their shows, if anything was subpar they would just send it back to be reanimated.

The New Batman Adventures' styles weren't particularly good imo - it was the DCAU's first try with the style, and it really shows. Generally, the characters were more stylized than workable, and a lot of characters came off looking much worse because of it in no small part due to a lot of them lacking range of expression.

It's really noticeable when you compare it to the character designs in Superman The Animated Series or Batman Beyond - which uses the same general stylized art style but makes the designs more expressive, detailed and proportionate. It really shows in the crossovers with Superman: the Superman characters have a good range of expression and everything is very fluid and well designed, whereas the Batman characters practically look like caricatures in comparison and don't emote very well even when they're supposed to. They get a lot of mileage out of adding detail to Joker's face, though.

The art gradually got better and better, though it didn't get perfected really until Justice League.

edited 1st Jul '15 10:30:39 PM by KnownUnknown

I disagree there. The art got mostly more boring and less creative. Or, to say it bluntly, bland. I rather take a show which I immediately recognize based on the artwork than one in which everyone looks "realistic". "Realistic" should never be the point in animation.

I never said a more abstract/cartoony style couldn't work with serious story telling. Samurai Jack is an example where it made expression and action more dynamic. But not all cartoony styles are created equal. It's not a simple line with 'realism' and 'cartoon' on opposing ends.

edited 2nd Jul '15 6:45:39 AM by CitizenH

Even the Teen Titans art from the Murakami school, which was far cartoonier than Timm's, allowed for efficient drama whenever that series wanted to go there.

I'd actually call Teen Titans' art more realistic than the Timm style in general, at least in regards to proportions and stuff, especially after the first season - though they were willing to go for more abstract art at humor's sake.

And yeah, in that case as well what made the style work was the range of expression the characters had. Same goes for The Spectacular Spider Man, which got a lot out of its simplicity by emphasizing how fluid everything was and emphasizing where it counts.

edited 2nd Jul '15 11:01:03 AM by KnownUnknown

I've been marathoning through the DCAU Verse lately and I just finish Batman Beyond. It's been an awesome ride so far.

I feel each show get's better than the previous.

Watch the first six episodes, seems like a fun show so far. What's wrong with it?

Zeta aimed a younger than a lot of the DCAU. The stories were a bit more simple, and even though the show sometimes dealt with heavier subjects like prejudice, the gritty cyberpunk corporate dystopia of Batman Beyond got bowdlerized quite a lot in some cases.

Yeah, it is Lighter and Softer than Batman Beyond. But after seeing that horrible Joker flashback. I could use a breather.

The Joker really cross the line in what he did to poor Tim.

edited 7th Jul '15 8:43:10 PM by AnimatedDreamer

The main problem with The Zeta Project was that it was really inconsistent. Some episodes were actually pretty good, especially when they touched upon the fact that despite being reformed he was still a robot assassin and that leaves everyone else worried. But it didn't help that the second Batman Beyond appearance was better than most of their own episodes, exposing it as really a subpar spinoff.

Now as for Static Shock, it was okay in the early episodes building his Rogues Gallery and the Justice League crossover was pretty cool. But it relied too heavily on crossovers and real celebrities in guest appearances. It felt like the worst of Scooby Doo and 80's celebrity cartoon adaptations. The best that can be said is that Virgil was a pretty solid character throughout.

In what way was the second Zeta episode better than most if you could be more precise.

Though the guest star and crossover didn't really start in earnest until late in the show. For most of the series such things were rare.

And even given the last couple seasons, there aren't as many guest star episodes as the show tends to be remembered for (though those episodes are horrible).

edited 8th Jul '15 7:33:21 PM by KnownUnknown

Poor Zeta. I barely remember it.

I actually started watching Justice League on netflix again. I remember season one having a bit of a rough start and indeed the part 1 episodes are usually paced kind of weird but most of the arcs so far have been staisfying enough to hold my interest. The dialogue does fall kind of flat a lot especially with Flash early one but it seems to be getting better. I just finished the one with the man-virus which admittedly was kind of meh especially compared to the earlier Wonder Woman one which was surprisingly fun.

Gorilla grodd though...easily the lowest point of the series so far. Jeez Flash's presence in the DCAU only emphasizes how utterly lame his rogue gallery is. He seriously has one of the worst rogue galleries out of major comic book heroes. Screw Grodd.

The next is the werid comic book hero group which was one of my favorites back when the show used to air, so I'm looking forward to that. I never forgot GL's reaction to the "credit to your people line" lol.

What's so bad about Grodd? Unless you have a problem with Silver Age concepts in general.

Or the rest of Flash's Rogues Gallery, for that matter? The Rogues are one of the coolest and most iconic villain organizations in all of comicdom.

edited 8th Jul '15 7:42:54 PM by KnownUnknown

Most of Flash's Rogues are great characters but just so-so villains, at least compared to the man they fight. Most of them would be great Spider-Man or so villains, other than the uberpowered ones.

edited 8th Jul '15 7:47:05 PM by NapoleonDeCheese