That sounds like a good idea. This trope is a hogpog of different ideas. It needs some focus and your wick check demonstrates that need.
Yes, wonderful wick check. So, what do we do? Should we cut this and YKTTW the individual tropes? Or is there something here worth saving this page for?
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Ok, doing some more digging into this, found a quote that sums up what this trope is going for.
"[Michael 'P.S.' Hayes] is also credited with the notion that black wrestlers don’t need gimmicks because being black is their gimmick." —A (Very) Concise History of Racism in Wrestling, 1980-Present
The idea that Black people are "different" or that Blackness is "alien" is what this trope seems to be going for. It basically catalogs forms of Positive Discrimination where being "Black and funky" or "Black and hip" is a primary characterization of the character, whether through speech, attitude, costuming, or other methods.
Or in other words, black people's hat is being black. So think a token black character whose blackness is pumped up to 11.
edited 22nd Jun '15 1:57:48 PM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Hi
If we're going to save this, I think ![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
is the way to go.
Thanks for all the feedback!
I like Shimaspawn's idea. And this part:
The idea that Black people are "different" or that Blackness is "alien" is what this trope seems to be going for. It basically catalogs forms of Positive Discrimination where being "Black and funky" or "Black and hip" is a primary characterization of the character, whether through speech, attitude, costuming, or other methods.
Though I'm not sure whether Positive Discrimination applies here: it seems to be about token characters who are depicted as flawless, which I don't think is the case here.
edited 23rd Jun '15 5:33:12 PM by Rjinswand
Yes, Shimaspawn's idea provides a way forward. Something like "A black person's blackness inherently makes them more cool, more hip, etc. than other ethnics". In short, positive discrimination.
I wouldn't accentuate the part about ""blackness" makes someone cool" — since how exactly does one prove that it's the "blackness" that makes the character cool, and not their other qualities?
I'm personally leaning more towards just "black characters who have their (stereotypical) "blackness" as an important part of their characterization".
edited 2nd Jul '15 1:37:13 PM by Rjinswand
Sure. That can work too. Do you have a new page definition in mind; some kind of draft that we can work with from here on?
Keep in mind that what stereotypical blackness is has changed over time so this trope does arch over a large number of other stereotypes, the gangbanger, the rapper, the Jive Turkey, the mammie. Which flavour of stereotypical blackness matters less for this trope, though all of those flavours should probably be their own tropes if they're common enough in media.
Yes, this is going to come off as a very racist trope when it's done, but media can be racist and part of our job is documenting that racism.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
@10: I'll try to make a sandbox, based on the existing definition and suggestions in this thread.
@11: Yes, of course, this trope has a strong racist subtext note . But I'm sure it's not the first trope with racist connotations on this wiki, and you're right, we're documenting what already exists anyway. But I think it needs to be mentioned in the trope's description in some way.
As for specific stereotypes, I'd suggest restricting this trope to "urban" black stereotypes only. Those have still changed a lot over time, so that should of course be mentioned in the description. Thoughts?
UPD: As for whether the specific stereotypes should be their own tropes — maybe; but we can always split them off as subtropes after we fix Soul Brotha itself, can't we?
UPD 2: Sandbox/Soul Brotha
This is just a draft, so feel free to offer any edits, criticism, suggestions, etc.
edited 25th Jul '15 12:10:42 PM by Rjinswand
I don't think we need to restrict it to any subset of black stereotypes. We just need to mention that they have changed over time, and it would be nice to make tropes for the more common ones.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
So basically, a Black Stereotype Index?
How about this: We create a Black Stereotype Index for all black stereotypes, and keep Soul Brotha for the specific "urban, ghetto, usually cool black person" subtype? Because I feel it's a distinct one from all other racial stereotypes black people have/had (e.g. Mammy). Thoughts?
edited 26th Jul '15 12:49:51 AM by Rjinswand
I'm ok with that.
Cool! What do you think about the sandbox writeup I made? Any critique or suggestions?
I think it needs a line in there about them being portrayed as cool. That tends to be one of the defining bits of this stereotype. They're always cool.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
There's a line in the 2nd paragraph that goes
And I wouldn't say they're always cool. They're often cool. But sometimes, when done poorly, these characters can rather come off as annoying and ridiculous.
edited 27th Jul '15 5:05:03 AM by Rjinswand
I don't like the first paragraph of the sandbox. It has too much of Examples Are Not Recent problem. I'd like to remove the implications to time or put something solid in there. Otherwise, I like the sandbox. I also like the idea of adding new examples from scratch.
Thanks for the input! Yeah, I'm not very good at writing descriptions, I'm afraid. I tried fixing that paragraph a bit, I don't know if I succeeded though. If you think it needs more changes, feel free to suggest a better phrasing.
You're welcome. The Examples Are Not Recent thing was better but still there. I couldn't see a reason for the first paragraph other than "preamble" so I cut it.
Thanks for the edit! You're right, that paragraph was unnecessary. The article now reads much better without it.
So, any more feedback on the sandbox? Sandbox/Soul Brotha
edited 12th Aug '15 6:25:23 PM by Rjinswand
these two parts for me
these characters are often portrayed as "cool" and "badass", and are admired both in-universe and by fans (if done well; if not, it may result in an Ethnic Scrappy). Still, a stereotype is a stereotype, and at its core it still stems from the conscious or subconscious belief that black people are somehow "different" and that their "blackness" should be one of their main characteristics.
and
Some stock black character types, however, e.g. Bald Black Leader Guy and Black Boss Lady, generally tend to avoid this trope altogether.
Bald Black Leader Guy and Black Boss Lady typically do avoid the 'urban' part. But they definitely get by on the 'black is inherently differently and that makes them cool' part. So I wouldn't say they avoid this trope altogether. It's just another form of how the depiction of blackness changes. They're on the line where Black=Monstrous and Scary turned into Black=Badass and Tough.
edited 15th Aug '15 8:48:57 AM by acrobox
I'd like to disagree.
Firstly, the Sandbox definition lacks the "being black makes you cool" part. That's because I believe that "cool" is subjective, and also I'm not sure how it's possible to determine when a character is "cool because they're black".
Bald Black Leader Guy is mostly a visual trope. It's just a common occurrence that many no-nonsense leader guys in fiction happen to be bald and black. Black Boss Lady was originally coined as an inversion of Da Chief, and got pretty popular by itself.
Now, as I've said somewhere on YKTTW, I do think that there may be potential for a possible trope around the lines of "stoic, masculine, charismatic black man". But that'd be a different trope, not Soul Brotha.
Hi
The term makes me think of the 70s and early 80s specifically, or people who invoke that era's image ...perhaps the definition should be tooled to note that, as I don't think any other era is associated with it as strongly.
"Needs help" is the best way to describe this. As it is, this trope seems unsure what exactly it's describing.
The description starts by saying it's about a guy with "kickass quotes", a character who is "badass" and "pure coolness". And black. Then it lists several black stereotypes (afro, Jive Turkey slang, Where The White Women At), but it's not clear whether their presence is necessary for this trope to work. Then it suddenly says this trope is about when black characters are perceived as being "cooler" than white characters. Then it digresses to make a weird connection to the history of black music and the word "cool".
The Laconic describes the trope as "Impossibly cool and badass black man".
The examples are a bunch of ZC Es, several black men who happen to be cool, and also some examples of stereotypically "funky" black men (apparently, 70s Luke Cage fits this trope, but modern Luke Cage doesn't). And Snoop Dogg (yes, this trope has a Real Life section).
All in all, judging from the examples and wicks I've seen, this trope is a conjoined monstrosity; one part "stereotypical 'urban' black man", one part just Scary Black Man, one part "black character who I think is cool".
My proposition: Rework it into a trope about stereotypical "urban" black characters ("funky" guys with afros and Jive Turkey slang, or "gangstas" in more modern works) — we seem to be lacking a trope about these stereotypes. Maybe add Soul Sister as a redirect, and have the trope include stereotypical "urban" black women, too (Sassy Black Woman is about attitude, this trope would be more about style). Thoughts?
UPDATE
Seeing as the thread isn't yet opened for the discussion, I assume it's because it lacks a nifty wick analysis. Here it goes:
Summary:
Conclusion: The analysis supports my earlier suggestion. Rework this page into a trope about blaxploitation 70s "funk" black sterotypes, and "gangsta" black stereotypes. Remove all ZC Es, Real Life examples, and "cool" examples. Hope this analysis will be enough to open the discussion!
edited 8th Jun '15 3:24:31 PM by Rjinswand