Fantastic Racism or simply a point of view?

I'm trying to work out a conversational scene during which a human character argues with an elf who belongs to a guild of assassins. Though the human is neutral about the existence of hired killers in general, he dislikes the idea of an elf working for such a group.

His reasoning is that elves are potentially immortal barring sickness or violent death. It is therefore "obscene" that a being who has a potentially unlimited lifespan would purposely snuff out the lives of creatures who have a finite time among the living.

What I wondered was if this is an example of Fantastic Racism on the human's part, an interesting argument, or just nonsense? If it's the third option I'll scrap it, but I wanted to run it by writers out there first.

edited 30th May '15 8:23:17 PM by Swordofknowledge

I don't think its a mutually exclusive situation. Could be Fantastic Racism and an interesting philosophical argument. My gut feeling is that isn't quite Fantastic Racism, and closer to a Space Whale Aesop situation.

The best mapping to real life that comes to mind, would be someone from a developed nation (whose medicine makes 100 years a reasonable lifetime) going into an impoverished one and cutting short peoples lives. Which admittedly happens. But I think the immortality there has less to do with either's background more inherent in killing. I think then the question becomes, does the elf decide who he's killing, or is he just sent out by the guildmaster?

If his objection to a character's profession is based solely on a trait inherent to that character's race then I'm not seeing how it's not racism.

My question: Do your elves have wars? Do they fight each other? Do they kill each other? How often does an elf kill a person of another race? And how does that compare to, say, a human? A dwarf? An orc?

If yes, it's probably racism. He may or may not have a good point, but he'd be fighting a thing that already happens anyway.

If not, then he's got an argument. "Your people don't kill each other, so why are you killing us?"

Figure that out first. (But yeah, the question itself is pretty racist.)

edited 31st May '15 4:09:39 PM by AwSamWeston

Aw Sam Weston made some awsam points, but I want to add on a few others to think about.

Your human's hang up is, on the surface, about immortality that the elves just 'happen' to have. Are there other species who are immortal? Would he hate them just as much for being assassins?

When you have your human interacting with this elf, does the human focus more on him being an elf or on him being an immortal? And if elves are the only immortals you have, is the human harping more on things the elf does related to immortality (like saying, "Why don't you go first through this dangerous hall, elf?" or "Make the elf keep watch. He can sleep when he's dead. Har har."), or related to the elf's visual or cultural aspects?

I think it's an interesting argument for the human to have that can be grounded in a lot of fair reasoning, but if it's trying to avoid racism, I'd also aim - if you can - to have some interactions with non-assassin elves, too. After all, if his only/biggest concern is that elves are further flaunting the gift of life by killing mortals, then the human should be relatively neutral to other elves, right? Well, at least until they do something immortal-y, too.

edited 1st Jun '15 7:58:26 AM by Tartra

I had a similar scene in one of my stories in which an elf views his life as more valuable due to his long life (mine aren't immortal but they can live for a thousand years). If a human dies, they just missed out on a few decades. If a young elf (he hadn't even hit a hundred yet) dies, he'll miss out on centuries of life.

I'd say have your characters talk out the scene. Give your human an opinion. Even if that opinion is "wrong". It makes your characters more real to have thoughts and feelings, especially natural feelings that would arise from having a race of immortals walking the earth.

This leads me to wonder if the Human Character's issue is more about jealousy. "No fair! You get to be immortal and I don't!"

I'm always in favor of characters disagreeing, especially about aspects of the worldbuilding. Whether it's history ("are you sure the Great War happened that way? I heard this...") or geography ("No, I could've sworn the Big Evil Castle was over that hill!") or interactions between cultures ("Please stop flaunting your magic and immortality and general perfectness.")

Are elves harder to kill, are their deaths significantly rarer than human deaths?

If yes then I think it's not unreasonable for the human to have an issue with the elf killing humans when it will likely never have to worry about death itself.

When considering fantastic racism it's important to consider that unlike in real life there are often real,and significant, non superficial differences between fiction species and these shouldn't be excluded from judgement simply because they are inherent.

When it comes to judging fantastic racism it's important to differentiate between generalisations / xenophobia and logical arguments based on a species' unique traits. E.g. It's not racist to say all orcs are evil if in the setting they are biologically incapable of anything more than chaotic violence. Really its just a statement of fact.

In this case, it doesn't sound like the humans is being racist because, at the core, his issue isn't with the elf killing because of his species but because he is immortal. How he achieved immortality and therefore his species is not important. Of course if he is ok with other immortal species killing but not elves that would be fantastic racism.

edited 4th Jun '15 5:21:34 PM by aoide12

I literally tried to say this exact thing in another convo about Fantastic Racism but I couldn't say it as concisely.

I think I'm misunderstanding OP's goal here. Does he/she want the human to be racist in a fantastic sense (tee-hee!) and is here looking for tips on how to crank it up, or is OP checking to see whether what's been written already is racist and wants advice to turn it down?

edited 5th Jun '15 5:56:36 AM by Tartra

From how I see it, the one asking the question wants to know whether it will get taken as racism or not, to be able to believably write reactions of other people partaking in the argument. It doesn't necessarily have to be turned up or down anyway, regardless of whether it does or does not sound racist, as even people who aren't racist can say something that does sound racist, and even people who are racist can actually have a point.

Assassins are people who kill other people as their day-job. I fail to see why someone's age would be an important factor in whether or not they should be allowed to do that, unless it makes them incapable of actually carrying out the tasks involved (too young, too old, etc.).

Moreover, we humans kill a myriad of animals every day, to whom we may as well be immortal. Insects, rodents, cattle, poultry... we live far longer natural lives than these animals, yet no-one ever claims it's wrong for us to end their lives based on our life expectancy.

You know what that argument sounds like? Dog-whistle racism. If there's something akin to the "Jews control the world" conspiracy theory in your setting, but with Elves, then a person arguing that they don't want immortals interfering with mortal lives could actually be making a subtle nod to the belief that Elves are manipulative and treacherous, without having to outright say it. Like, they say "immortals" as a general term, but we all know which immortals they're really talking about.

That said, I doubt the assassin involved in this conversation would be particularly convinced by this argument, even if it wasn't horribly racist. Assassins are not selected for their high degrees of empathy or moral thought. The kind of person who could kill a man while be pleads for his life, and then go home and sleep soundly, isn't going to be particularly moved by appeals to morality.

Right! Another good point. Assassins are all in the business of gutting others for their clients. Unlike the typical mercenary or thug, these guys are professional killers. If everyone else has kept their composure around each other up to now, then the fact that this human would break his silence to even mention his discomfort at the idea of an elf doing this job is a big deal.

I'd like to know what about this character makes him care, though. He's got no problem with hired killers, but a race who's been around long enough to perfect the art over centuries is... bad? Haha - racism isn't logical, but I do hope that gets pointed out to the human during your conversation, OP!

Thanks for all the replies everyone; this really got me thinking. To elaborate, I didn't really want the human to seem racist, just philosophical, especially since he doesn't take any negative action towards the elven assassin before or after. To put it in context, the human and elf are both villains, Co-Dragons to the Big Bad. The human is a former knight who believes he's doing the right thing, and the elf is a former noble and is in it for the money.

@ Aw Sam Weston: Yes, the elves in this setting do have wars—the elf in question was part of a failed coup in her kingdom that resulted in many deaths and majorly weakened all the elven lands.

@ Tartra: Well, the human's interactions with the assassin are more related to her being immortal—at one point he asks her if the conflict seems like children fighting to someone as long-lived as she is. I was trying to avoid it looking like racism—I'm more going for portraying the character's philosophical and moral musings—but I wasn't too bothered if it came out like that. I just wanted to avoid it being complete nonsense. Elves are the only species that are flat out immortal, but there are others that have far longer lives than humans. Make of that what you will.

• You and Tungsten74 make a good point about an assassin's morality. The whole conversation pretty much ends when the elf tells him she doesn't really care about what he thinks or his view of the world. But it's left ambiguous as to whether it's because he's human or just because she doesn't like him or his insistence on analyzing things and people.

All in all, it sounds like a lot of people had differing opinions, which I guess is good. I'm just going to have to go back to the drawing board to make it less racist and more about the philosophical/moral "responsibilities" immortal creatures have towards mortals.

edited 6th Jun '15 1:10:40 PM by Swordofknowledge

Wait ... how is she immortal if wars had resulted in elven deaths?

I mean, if she is immortal because she is an elf, and elves can die but simply not of natural causes, then she might simply not age normally or something but certainly wouldn't be truly immortal, would she?

"Immortality" doesn't only cover complete immortality, I believe; cases in which one doesn't die of natural causes but may die by violence still fall under the term.

edited 6th Jun '15 2:24:50 PM by ArsThaumaturgis

Yes, I know. But in this case it's about a character who is supposedly immortal being a killer. If the character's immortality only means that they won't die of old age but they can still be killed normally, then this immortality means pretty much nothing as far as the character being an assassin is concerned.

Thus, the rejection of "immortality" as a word to describe this immortality or however you'd call it. Because the aspect of immortality that is important here is not dying when people are trying to kill you, and since that is not present, this immortality means pretty much nothing here.

edited 6th Jun '15 2:37:48 PM by Kazeto

Aah, I see—that point didn't come across to me in your previous post. Fair enough, then!

@Tungsten74: Actually, there are MANY people who say that EXACT THING, but everyone ignores them because we just like killing stuff (that doesn't need to die for our survival anymore). People have been consistently fighting against the fur coat industry, for example, but fur coats are still a thing because most people don't care about the animals who have to die to provide those glorious garments.

Furthermore, "conspiracy theory" does not equal "made-up bullshit". There are ACTUAL conspiracies all the time. You can even read about some of the more famous ones. And if, for example, elves DID secretly control the world for some nefarious reason, then anti-elfism would be perfectly understandable.

edited 6th Jun '15 4:18:36 PM by nekomoon14

If elves are able to be killed, it rather levels the playing field - rather like the long-lived humans killing shorter-lived animals - both are functionally "mortal" so far as violence is concerned.

Even if elves are tougher to kill, it's still possible (or they wouldn't be able to kill each other).

The comparative length of life between the two species becomes the only sticking point, given the presence of human assassins, and the ability of, say, a bodyguard or a well-placed trap to dispose of any assassin - short-lived human or ageless elf alike.

@Nekomoon: People who oppose the fur trade don't do so because of some weird philosophical argument about human lifespans versus animal lifespans. They oppose it because they see it as a luxury industry founded on unnecessary cruelty.

Also no, conspiracy theories are bullshit. If they weren't, they'd just be straight-up conspiracies, no ifs or buts.

And while I know it's not what you said, all I see when I read your last statement is "if Jews really DID run the world for some nefarious reason, then anti-semitism would be perfectly understandable". I read that in real-world terms, because it highlights to me the absurdity of what you're proposing.

You mean every single Elf alive is in on the conspiracy? Every single Elf is just fine with supporting that state of affairs? Even the children? No Elf has ever sought to do something else with their life, besides ensuring Elfkind's continued secret dominion of the world? No Elf has ever fallen out of favour and been dumped at the bottom of the Elven hierarchy, and come to resent those on top?

Even if the main conspirators were all Elves, how does that make crapping on every other Elf in existence "perfectly understandable"? What do they have to do with the International Elven Conspiracy? Why is it okay to condemn an entire race of people for the sins of a minority? Just because a handful of Elves are treacherous and manipulative doesn't mean they all are.

For Christ's sake, stop legitimizing racism.

edited 7th Jun '15 9:30:42 AM by Tungsten74

Just to bring this back on topic, if you reverse-engineer Tungsten's comment, you could make a seriously interesting/creepy-as-all-hell character hiding in the bushes to watch those damn Elves. It might add a neat, crazy touch of flavour to a cast of otherwise level-headed characters, especially if the Elf and Human conversation is just going to end with the Elf saying, "I don't actually care what you think," and the Human going, "Oh. Well, that's the end of this conversation, then."

Mr. Extra Paranoid could be that spark of social antagonism the dynamic needs to show the Human isn't 'as far gone' as the Paranoid, but also that the Human isn't the only person a little leery of semi-immortal Elves killing others.

edited 7th Jun '15 10:47:09 AM by Tartra

Actually, I know quite a few people who specifically oppose the needless killing of animals BECAUSE we are so much more long-lived than most of them are. I have a friend who’ll go ape-shit on you for squashing a bug, ESPECIALLY if you say something like “they don’t live that long anyway”. And it’s not weird, at least not in our opinions, so can we not say things like “weird philosophical argument”?

I’m sure you’d be surprised at how many conspiracy theories actually turned out to be true, just in the United States alone. I’m not even talking about modern ones but old ones like from the 50’s and 60’s that we now have evidence WERE TRUE. So, no, conspiracy theories are not automatically bullshit. And I’m not personally one to give credence to such ideas, I’m just stating facts.

If the majority of elves are dangerous, then yes, humans should avoid them. That’s survival. We’re not talking about a different ethnic group (I assume the hypothetical elves in this scenario constitute a separate species) but beings that could very well be humanity’s natural predators or something. I’m not the one treating different species as different ethnic groups here, you seem to be. A Jewish person is not an elf and an elf is not a Jewish person; there is no correlation in my mind or fiction between species and race (which is why I hate mainstream drow). So, again, anti-elfism may be justified, depending on the details of the setting. We don’t judge every lion on her individual merit but treat her as a dangerous being because that is what she is in relation to us, even if she is remarkably tame; I treat other species the same way, even if they happen to look like humans with pointy ears.

Now, if you’re saying these hypothetical elves are actually something like an ethnic division within the human species, then I’d agree with you that we shouldn’t pre-judge them based on the actions of a minority. However, if the majority of elves are dangerous, then I stand by the conviction that they are best avoided. I don’t agree with “final solutions”, but I agree with staying away from things that want to kill (or enslave) you for whatever reason.

EDIT:

If these elves are so long-lived and resilient that they easily outclass humans, then it IS shitty for them to go around killing short-lived humans who are all too easily dispatched. That's like someone going around shooting lions and leopards for fun. (Oh wait, people DO that.)

edited 7th Jun '15 11:41:18 PM by nekomoon14

Most Elves are intelligent, self-aware, empathic beings. They can be reasoned with. They can hold rational and irrational opinions. And most importantly of all, they can choose to act opposite to their "nature". They are PEOPLE, not just "things" upon which labels like "dangerous" or "treacherous" can be readily applied.

And the closest parallel to our world that such a concept has, is race. So that's why I treat them like a race.

"But what if I specifically made a setting where Elves can't act opposite to their nature?"

Then I'd seriously wonder why you're so intent on making a setting that supports the beliefs of actual, real-world racists.

EDIT: Like, holy shit, do you realise that you are literally parroting the arguments of real-life racists when you say:

Just replace Elves with "black people" and you'd be bang on the money.

edited 8th Jun '15 5:09:45 AM by Tungsten74

Tungsten, that's completely not it. And the majority of black people, or white people, or whichever other group you choose (unless the chosen group is "dangerous people" or "fanatics" or anything similar), are not actually dangerous.

Also, if the majority of a given group are dangerous, then chances are, anyone from that group is dangerous rather than not. So avoiding them—not discriminating against them or pretending not to see them or anything like that—is not about racism but rather about self-preservation instinct. It might appear racist to some, but it's not about racism.

So please do stop for a moment and think about this. Because your reply, along with the previous one or two, make it appear as if you were flipping out over the whole issue. I'm not saying that you do, but it certainly makes you appear that way, so it might potentially be good if you stop for a moment and ask yourself "what if this person I am talking with did not mean what I assumed they meant?" and then return to it.