We're documenting tropes as they are used in fiction, not what they should be ideally. Tropes Are Not Bad probably applies here as well.
To expand, we are documenting the objective fact that tropes exist and are used in media. We are not making value judgments on those tropes. Our role is descriptive, not prescriptive. If you feel the need to tell everyone how bad a trope is, you should probably go somewhere else.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I think you're both misunderstanding, and Leaper's saying that our writeup of the trope has Unfortunate Implications. Which... I'm kind of on the fence about, but I don't think it would be the first time.
I don't think the writeup has more details than what's needed to be accurate. And I don't see any trace of anything about deserving anyone in the writing.
Check out my fanfiction!So we're saying "We're not saying that being overweight is a clear and consistent indicator of being ugly (even though we do say it, directly, right there in the description); just that everyone else thinks so"?
Except we already changed Nerds Are Sexy for doing something similar, so I'm not sure this is that different from it.
And the other part I got mostly from the examples. Perhaps the difference between description and examples makes that another thing entirely; I can certainly see an argument for that.
ETA: Or perhaps from the concept that a "10" being with anyone less than a "9" is inexplicable and inconceivable. But maybe that falls under the "reporting a trope" thing, I dunno.
edited 19th Apr '15 1:21:18 PM by Leaper
I don't really understand what you're saying at all. The trope description does not make value judgments; it describes how the trope is actually used. In Hollywood, being overweight is a component of ugliness. This is undeniable.
The description might meander a bit but it does make it clear that the use of the trope is a Double Standard, and the fact of the trope is due in part to there being relatively few "unattractive" actresses.
edited 19th Apr '15 2:29:32 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"If you see something in the examples that are casting judgements not expressed in the work providing the example itself, you can probably edit that to be more neutral. That sort of cleaning is necessary for most tropes that have subjective components, especially if it's a natter-magnet trope.
For this particular trope, though, some judgement is necessary for the subjective component of unattractiveness. If the trope was written to only include In-Universe examples or where it's otherwise noted, it would be different, but it isn't.
Check out my fanfiction!Okay, I think you helped me figure out part of what's bothering me.
In this trope, WE, the audience, are the ones making the value judgment as to whether these women are "too good" for these guys. It's not Hollywood who has decided that fat guys don't deserve hot women, and it's not Hollywood who has determined that fat equals ugly under this trope. WE have (as pointed out by the Audience Reaction thing).
If we changed Hollywood Nerd (not Nerds Are Sexy, my mistake) for making the judgment that nerds are, by default, ugly, how is this different?
What?! No, I think you are mistaken. The examples are stuff like "In a line of beer commercials featuring football referees, one poor guy was penalized for 'Disproportionately hot girlfriend!'" and "In Galaxy Express 999 & other works by Leiji Matsumoto, the beautiful Space Pirate Queen Emeraldas is hopelessly in love with the impossibly ugly Tochiro" and "In Knocked Up, the premise is that Seth Rogen's character gets a girl who is way out of his league pregnant and manages to turn it into a real relationship." It goes out of its way to avoid audience reactions, they are mostly (all?) in-universe judgements. This is definitely a common trope in media.
edited 20th Apr '15 2:37:27 AM by rodneyAnonymous
Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.I see plenty of examples where it's obviously the troper passing judgment on the husband in question, especially in Live Action TV.
And the description itself calls out being overweight as a good marker of judging overall attractiveness.
Media in general uses being overweight as a sign of being unattractive. You don't have to like it, but that's how it is.
Check out my fanfiction!I know that, and I think I've figured out where the confusion is coming from.
Because of the presence of so many examples not acknowledged in-universe, I've been thinking of this trope as an Audience Reaction — i.e. "I think this dude is ugly, and that his wife is out of his league. WTF."
But if it's supposed to be in-universe only, then perhaps the solution is to MAKE it in-universe only, and to clean up the examples.
But it's not supposed to be in-universe only. It's supposed to be a description of a pattern found in media.
Check out my fanfiction!Okay, then, my confusion persists, because I don't understand how this trope isn't an Audience Reaction, and what Hollywood's conception of attractiveness has to do with the trope, because as far as I can tell, no casting agent is going, "hey, this guy is ugly, let's pair him up with a hot female lead".
Meaning, as far as I can tell, THEY, the media makers, aren't the ones invoking the trope. WE, the consumers, are the ones noticing this and attaching significance to it.
Therefore, WE are the ones making the value judgments, and what Hollywood thinks is attractive or unattractive has no significance. So we, including the editors at TV Tropes, are saying that we think that being overweight = ugly.
Am I making my point clear?
You don't have to actively invoke a trope to use it, and noticing a trend in how people think isn't the same as thinking that yourself. Your conclusion relies on both of those, so I don't think it holds up.
Check out my fanfiction!I see what you're saying, and that addresses some of my concerns, but I still don't understand how we can pawn off the negative opinion of overweight people on Hollywood, and not us. I don't see why THEIR conception of beauty has any relevance here, since they're not invoking it.
The reasons for the pattern don't matter so much as the pattern itself. The article's description might be a bit too speculative.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Are you arguing that being overweight isn't loaded with any negative connotations? Or that Hollywood's standards of beauty are completely isolated from everyone else's?
Maybe a little bit, but there's still a clear pattern of the attractiveness of women mattering more than the attractiveness of men.
edited 20th Apr '15 12:11:21 PM by AnotherDuck
Check out my fanfiction!I'm saying that if you're going to justify having a note in the description saying that being overweight is a sure marker of ugliness that you can't say its source is "Hollywood." We should at least own up to where it's coming from.
And as for the previous action I mentioned with Hollywood Nerd, at least then the casting agents were making a specific statement. They're not here, as far as I can tell.
There's no need to "own up" to anything here. And what holds for one trope doesn't necessarily hold for another.
Check out my fanfiction!In most of the examples on that page, the work is (often explicitly) employing the trope. Feel free to remove entries that express a troper's personal opinion.
You might want to ask others' opinion before you do, though; according to this thread, they may differ from yours.
edited 20th Apr '15 1:58:05 PM by rodneyAnonymous
Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.Well... right off the bat, I don't think the Wreck It Ralph one fits...
All beauty is subjective. However, cultures do have generally agreed upon standards of beauty. And if you're using an English language wiki, odds are pretty good you're from a culture where being fat is generally agreed to be unattractive.
As for the "what could she possibly see in him?" thing: It's taken as a given that the Hot Wife, by virtue of being hot, could have scored a much more attractive guy than the one she ended up with. That raises the question of why she chose him, since people usually pursue romantic partners based, in large part, on their physical attractiveness.
"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara HarukoI'm undecided on the page, but that argument definitely has some Unfortunate Implications going on.
Is it just me, or is this trope full of some implications that are extremely uncomfortable, the two main ones being "ugly people do not deserve a mate more attractive than they are" (mostly through the "what can she possibly see in him" thing) and the description ending note that makes being overweight a clear marker of being ugly? Both of these things make me wince, and I'm neither overweight nor married.