Unclear Description: Semper Fi

It's not so much that Semper Fi's description is unclear as that it reads like a Useful Notes page, but on closer inspection, clearly isn't. Additionally, the United States Marine Corps header on UsefulNotes.Yanks With Tanks links directly to Semper Fi, which can't help the impression that it's a Useful Notes page. Because of this, there are a number of Zero-Context Examples of works that simply happen to have characters that are Marines.

The name also lends itself to misuse as a stock phrase, as there are ZCEs that simply consist of characters saying "Semper Fi". The Battlestar Galactica (Reimagined) example in particular might be massaged to fit, if Semper Fi is taken to mean any sufficiently idealized soldier archetype, but I feel like that's stretching it.

Scorpion451's suggestion, with which I agree, is to edit Semper Fi to make it clearly a trope about an "idealized eternally faithful (read: totally badass, honorable, diciplined, loyal, dutiful, and selfless) soldier archetype, which less cynical soldiers aspire to live up to and on rare occasion soldiers actually manage to approximate in real life.... [to] make Semper Fi purely about this aspect as demonstrated by all military establishments, noting the [USMC]'s 'marine myth' as the modern Trope Codifier and Trope Namer."

To follow from the above, I'd also cut the purely factual/informational/educational/etc. content from Semper Fi and paste it over on the USMC section of UsefulNotes.Yanks With Tanks. There might be enough to draw up a separate Useful Notes page for the USMC, but I feel like that's not necessary and might actually be counterproductive.

edited 3rd Nov '14 9:48:34 AM by SolipSchism

Opened this.

The trope is a stock character, to some degree, of a US marine.

I would consider this a stock character idealized version of the Marine, much as there are stock character versions of idealized versions of Mounties or British Royal Guards. But certainly it could use a better name, more concise description, and an example clean up.

Clock is set.

Since the title is only Semper Fi I think it can be an Useful Note. While the portrayal of US Marines as badass can get a new page.

There hasn't been much discussion, but am I correct in reading the following consensus:

• Semper Fi should be a stock character of an idealized US Marine, and maybe by extension, members of organizations obviously based on US Marines that aren't already Space Marines or other related tropes.
• Purely factual information that doesn't really factor into the trope should be either cut or moved to UsefulNotes.Yanks With Tanks under the Marines section.
• Examples should be cleaned up accordingly: Instances of the phrase "Semper Fi" should be removed if that's all they are; characters that actually fit the trope should be retained.

Anything else?

What would justify the use of the name "semper fi", anyway? Not all ppl would know what it refers to.

It's fairly recognizable, though nothing is truly "universal".

Semper Fi is a very iconic motto/catchphrase of the US Marine Corps; probably second only to "HOO-RAH" in recognisability.

edited 8th Dec '14 4:07:40 PM by SolipSchism

"semper fi" is a motto and yet the trope is about portrayal of US Marines... no wonder why the name's unclear.

I'm sure it's not universal, but I'm pretty sure most people would know what it is from, even if they might not necessarily know what it means (or the fact that it's actually short for Semper Fidelis).

Besides all of which, if the page is written properly, the first sentence should make it exceedingly clear that it's a trope about the USMC.

my issue wasn't with how the name is an obscure Latin phrase - more like it refers something that isn't really what the trope is. Look @ how some examples treat Semper Fi like a Stock Phrase.

So I wanna call it Badass Marines. Or Badass USMC if anything.

You make a good point. And if the proposed changes get made, I'll want to cull all of those examples. I don't see an issue with the name, though. It's iconic as representing the USMC (and this trope is heavily based around the USMC, not just Marines in general).

EDIT: Although I did say above that I did think the name lends itself to misuse. I guess I might just be defending it for no reason, now that I think about it. Hmph. I think the issue here is that Semper Fi lends itself to misuse, being a Stock Phrase, but I can't think of anything better.

edited 10th Dec '14 3:51:31 PM by SolipSchism

While most people have a concept of what a US Marine is and their fame, I can pretty correctly assest that "Semper Fi" is fairly obscure as far as motto goes. It's not exactly "God Save the Queen" here.

If you know even something about the marines then you know what Semper Fi is, its a good name IMO.

But given the average person doesn't know anything about the marines, is it still a good name?

Just a note, I'm going to go ahead and divorce myself from the discussion of the name right now, because being military, I'm way too biased in favor of it; I'm not qualified to say what the average person does and doesn't know about the military.

Very simple rule: If it has to be explained during Basic Combat Training, then you can assume most people don't know what it is.

I seriously doubt that any Marine recruit first hears the phrase "Semper Fi" as a reference to the USMC when they get to basic training. But that's neither here nor there.

If you're at least passingly familiar with the US military, I'd be very surprised if you didn't know that "Semper fi!" was the Marine Corps motto. However, that may be a generational thing...I knew it when I was a kid simply because my dad was in the Army and liked military-based writing and TV, but I'm not sure that I'd expect many 20-somethings and younger nowadays to make the connection.

edited 11th Dec '14 1:41:50 PM by Willbyr

I don't know, I'm American and I didn't even know the Marines had a motto. Then again, I'm more interested in what the Marines were doing historically so...

I'd think it would be better to change the name. Before I read this thread, I thought this was a stock phrase, not a character trope. And Latin names are murder to spell right. Not to mention just how many non-American people we have on this site or how many people will want to use this trope who have no clue about the actual Marines.

Again, call it Badass USMC.

I feel like Badass USMC is grammatically very awkward. There's no way to casually use it in a sentence.

Also, Badass is overused.

You really don't even need to know a marine to know Semper Fi.... Its usually brought up in elementary school going over basic structure of the military. Heck 99% of the time a marine is brought up on TV they bring up "Semper Fi" in some way.

I never even heard of this motto before knowing tvtropes. It's possible that it's common knowledge for Americans, while the rest of the world is on the blue about this.