Me not seeing a significant difference, either.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Political ends as sad remains will die
Merging would solve The Inner Reveal's Example as a Thesis problem too.
Not right away, not right away
No, the other one.
So it's basically just The Reveal for the sake of the characters, rather than the audience?
Also not seeing a significant difference between the two.
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Isn't Inner Reveal a character's in-universe action, plot twist, a confession about a secret almost necessarily to a limited group?
Because Internal Reveal looks more like a narrative device without any such specifics. It's like a hanging trait of plot, when a story has the leisure to make characters visibly act erroneously due to lack of their knowledge, explicitly not-in-hindsight for the audience.
For me, the two seem to have very little in common.
"The Inner Reveal happens when, for whatever reason, specific characters decide to reveal details of which they and the audience have been fully aware to characters who were out of the loop."
"Sometimes, however, the audience already knows. The dramatic tension comes from the fact that one or more characters in the story don't know, and that when they find out, the audience knows that the ramifications will be huge....The audience is on tenterhooks, waiting for the rest of the characters in the story to find out. In all these cases, the reveal is an Internal Reveal."
Yeah, that's the same trope. Characters in-story finding out things the audience already knows. The only difference I can see is that The Inner Reveal specifies a character telling other characters, which hardly seems like a distinction worthy of a separate trope. Merge.
edited 23rd Oct '14 2:15:28 AM by gallium
No, the other one.
Yeah, that's what I also counted as a non-significant difference. The important part of the trope is that something is being revealed to a character (or several) that's already known to the audience. I don't think the way the reveal is done alters the trope to the point it's a different one.
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This can get out of hand.
Did you people read the examples? None of the opinions in favor of the merge leave much room for doubt you didn't. Trope distinctions are not a matter of description linguistics alone. (This came out kind of rude >_<')
edited 23rd Oct '14 2:46:09 AM by NemuruMaeNi
They seem like the same trope to me, just described from different angles. Merge.
Rocks fall, everyone miraculously survives.
No, the other one.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
What in the examples make them clearly show that the tropes are different enough? I didn't find it before, and I don't find it now.
The rude part lies in assuming what other people do and think.
edited 23rd Oct '14 2:53:45 AM by AnotherDuck
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Internal Reveal not being used as a characterization tool is not enough? (Or would you disagree on Internal Reveal qualifications as characterization trope?)
Examples not overlapping is just a coincidence?
Do you think one step ahead, what context would be best to describe examples of merged trope? Are example lists just to be lumped without altering their texts?
edited 23rd Oct '14 6:01:09 AM by NemuruMaeNi
No, the other one.
Which trope is supposed to be which? I can't honestly tell from looking at the examples. If one's supposed to be about characterisation, then that one has a lot of Zero Context Examples, or at least examples without the actually needed context for the trope.
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"Internal Reveal not being used as a characterization tool is not enough?"
No, no it isn't.
"Are example lists just to be lumped without altering their texts?"
Probably.
edited 23rd Oct '14 7:19:29 PM by gallium
There are many ways to explain or to complain about the situation. But calling these two duplicates is not one of them, I think.
| The Inner Reveal | Internal Reveal | |
| Things similar | ||
| "Reveal"/The Reveal keyword, Everything's Worse with Snowclones. | ||
| Not a revelation for audience. What revelation there is is experienced by other characters. | ||
| "Internal/Inner" in the trope name | ||
| Neither is well-fleshed | ||
| Neither is clearly acknowledging the relationship with the other. | ||
| In example sections of both, currently, likely misuses can be spotted. | ||
| Both are indexed in strange ways and do not state relationship with Confession tropes | ||
| Both had little in ways of Wiki Magic per "related"-page. | ||
| Things distinct | ||
| Laconic (actually missing): A character confesses a part of own background to others, something audience knew | Laconic: The Reveal In-Universe. The Audience Knew That. (with a misuse-ful pothole to Everybody Knew Already) | |
| Guess: Written around cases of writers softening SecretIdentity-bearers and facilitating development of said characters by showing they have someone to communicate to, they're not alone. | Guess: Likely a poorly shaped idea to put together examples of scenes where characters finally stop "walking around" some important knowledge, and become dumbstruck or have an otherwise memorable reaction. | |
| Examples. They did not overlap (for example for Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha. It's mentioned in both, different events were found appropriate by someone for one and another) | ||
| Vast majority of example contexts point out the character that does the reveal. The revelations are about the character doing them. | Only some examples mention that the reveal is done by a character. In turn, not all of those revelations are about the character speaking. | |
| Since the character gets to choose who to enlighten, and gets to choose ways to present it to his/her audience, and is available to show reasons to even think of it on-screen, the trope can serve as a characterization trope. With those things being the degrees of freedom for trope to be flexible. Would still fully work for the character even if the recepient of revelation knew as well. | Description allows to encompass any little thing learned by some character on screen. The thing that shaped the page is the cautiousness of tropers, who instinctively looked exactly for high-impact things. Hard to imagine what is not flexible. Character Development is an aftermath, done by absorbing the knowledge and adjusting next actions accordingly (that's what the "TV networks love this device because they can promote the hell out of them." part is getting at, but epistemology aspects get so little attention in popular works, that the resulting trope aspect would be doomed on TVT.) | |
| Example as a Thesis. Quite a bad thing. But this doesn't refer to The Reveal at least. Still, what if the revelation is unintentional and/or comes from a different character? Does it count then? No answer. | The description pathetically ruins things and runs away by referring to The Reveal. Read the description of that? 2 + 2 = in this case a piece of information withheld from the in-universe characters to create suspense — is being reve—... wait. What? It's plain misuse of The Reveal. | |
| Solid enough to imagine formulas for Playing with a Trope. | Is not solid enough to imagine formulas for Playing with a Trope. | |
edited 24th Oct '14 6:16:15 AM by NemuruMaeNi
That still looks like The Same, but More Specific to me, just with a character doing the reveal. Still voting for a merge.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
No, the other one.
Yeah. I find that those distinctions are neither followed nor make for a trope with a different meaning.
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And narrative function of the combined trope would be? (I'm curious how you come to conclusions that seem to me akin to "Chisel and flashlight are the same but more specific kind of a tool. It's operated by hand.")
edited 24th Oct '14 6:35:40 AM by NemuruMaeNi
Same as Internal Reveal - dissociating the audience's and the character's knowledge of story events.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
^ Very, very unconvincing answer. I'd imagine plays involving Narrator figures and POV switching for things assessed this broad. More insight on logical standards of thinking at work.
There won't be a blessing from me for this (TRS effort) to proceed with the numbers, but it's not like there could be any need for it, heh.
edited 24th Oct '14 7:01:57 AM by NemuruMaeNi
No, the other one.
Well, this this discussion isn't going anywhere. Would it be a good idea to have a crowner?
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It seems like the current distinction is just the level of importance placed specifically on the character learning the fact. In the case of the "Internal" version, the fact that the character learned the information is a big plot twist, even though the information itself was already known to the audience. In the "Inner" version, the character knowing the fact isn't as important as the fact that it now means they can get involved in a situation they didn't know about before. However, wouldn't the first case only be considered a plot twist because the character can now act on the new information and get involved in a new part of the plot?
Clock is set.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
edited 4th Dec '14 10:14:46 AM by Darksilverhawk
Rocks fall, everyone miraculously survives.
From what I can tell, The Inner Reveal and Internal Reveal are the same trope. The latter's description differentiates them as follows: "Compare to, but do not confuse with The Inner Reveal where the reveal is not played for dramatic effect but serves to keep certain characters from entering subplots until necessary." This distinction was only added in July of this year, and The Inner Reveal doesn't likewise link to Internal Reveal, so they have probably been used to mean the same thing for most of their history. (I, for one, didn't even know The Inner Reveal existed until yesterday.)
Does this distinction warrant having two articles that are basically the same thing? Should they be considered variants/subtypes of the same trope?
I've tagged The Inner Reveal as the duplicate because it has way fewer wicks (25 versus Internal Reveal's 154) and is newer (2011 versus 2010).
edited 19th Oct '14 6:55:45 PM by NoriMori