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Kilyle Field Primus from Procrastinationville Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Field Primus
#1: Jul 12th 2014 at 8:56:57 PM

It was over five years ago that I hypothesized that the internet was moving toward a patronage system, where a minority of consumers supported the creation of content that the majority could enjoy free. The creation of sites like Patreon just confirms this to me, and I'm thrilled to see a variety of my favorite creators, from webcomic artists to Minecraft modders, start up Patreon accounts and see some of them pop up above $1000/month in short order. (Webcomics I've seen so far: Gunnerkrigg Court, El Goonish Shive, and Leftover Soup.)

So, has TV Tropes ever considered getting a Patreon account? It'd be a way for some of the supporters to give back on a regular basis, even as little as a couple bucks (I'm currently supporting Pam's Harvest Craft at $2.78/month... not much, but it's what I can afford, and when I divide her monthly total by the number of contributors, it seems I'm not far from the average donation). It also allows for the creation of Kickstarter-like goals: Reach $100/month and we'll do XYZ, $250/month and we'll do JKL, $1200/month and I'll quit my job and work on this important side project I've been putting off due to lack of time, etc. etc. (Would love to see something like a little book series (print or PDF) version of a portion of the site, detailing the X most common/popular character tropes, the Y most common romance tropes, Z most common villain tropes, etc., with much smaller example lists than the site has, as a potential offline reference guide.)

It may be that Patreon isn't useful to this site, but I ask that you at least consider it. So far it seems to be doing good for several of the content creators I frequent, and I have yet to see any downsides.

Only the curious have, if they live, a tale worth telling at all.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2: Jul 12th 2014 at 11:20:54 PM

What is Patreon, in detail?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#3: Jul 13th 2014 at 5:03:47 AM

Patreon is a website where creators of creative works, once they set up an account, have it so their fans can sign up to automatically donate monthly to fund their work. I know of several webcomics and a few LPers that fund themselves this way.

I have two concerns. First, I'm not certain TV Tropes qualifies as a creative work and would be eligible to have a Patreon account. If this is the case, this whole discussion is moot. Second, tropers in general aren't the most financially well off, as previous efforts to raise money from tropers haven't worked out very well. This doesn't prevent us from trying something like this, but it's a problem to keep in mind.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#4: Jul 14th 2014 at 3:04:32 AM

It seems like TV Tropes is more suited for something like a Kickstarter for one-time big investments, even if we have more of a need for ongoing income. Patreon seems more suited for producing or consuming content on a regular basis, and a wiki is just there, growing and evolving organically through the actions of its users, waiting for someone to come along and consume it any time.

As mentioned, previous efforts to get people to contribute money directly to the wiki voluntarily have not been particularly successful, and those involved one-time expenditures as opposed to a subscription model where people would have to keep paying on a regular basis.

[down]I wasn't necessarily suggesting a Kickstarter, just saying it would be less ill-suited; besides paying for an extra programmer it might pay for a new server, a new side project, or the like.

edited 14th Jul '14 8:57:27 AM by MorganWick

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5: Jul 14th 2014 at 5:58:04 AM

I can't imagine what sort of value we'd be able to offer people from a Kickstarter, because usually it's about getting perks and coming up with some kind of concrete outcome rather than just, "Fund TV Tropes' operations." That said, Penny Arcade recently ran one with the goal of letting them maintain their site ad-free for a year, with stretch goals for various additional content.

The real problem is that, even if we could figure out what to offer people for donating and have some kind of goal that would make the exercise worthwhile, there's exactly one guy with a day job to do all of the work. Previous attempts to partner up with "sponsors" and/or similar deals haven't worked out as hoped.

I don't know, maybe we could have a drive to let Eddie hire a programmer to work on the site full-time for a few months. That's something that could be worthwhile.

edited 14th Jul '14 9:21:42 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
rexpensive Since: Feb, 2014
#6: Jul 14th 2014 at 9:15:08 AM

Full-time paid mods as goal points, for reals.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#7: Jul 14th 2014 at 9:19:42 AM

Are you serious? I wouldn't mind a stipend of some sort but most of us already mod more than "full-time", in the sense of number of hours per day spent on the site. Not continuously — I have a day job, wife, and kid — but I refresh the forums and ATT no less than every 30 minutes from 8 AM my time to midnight, with the usual breaks of course.

Getting paid for it would imply some sort of quid pro quo obligation that's more than many of us would feel comfortable with. We're proud to be volunteers. Changing the dynamic of the relationship might not be healthy.

edited 14th Jul '14 9:26:03 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#8: Jul 14th 2014 at 11:50:39 AM

The vast, vast majority of sites on the internet work on a volunteer mod system. Only for-profit sites bother hiring anyone. We could always use a few more mods, but we've got a vast pool of volunteers to choose from if the current mods decide it's time to get some extra help. Spending money on the mods, while nice, is a poor decision when the site itself needs it more.

Rotpar Always 3:00am in the Filth from California (Unlucky Thirteen) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Always 3:00am in the Filth
#9: Jul 14th 2014 at 1:49:55 PM

While I'm not a fan of the internet Kickstarter panhandling—"give me money and I might make/do something", Patreon might work. It's basically just allowing donors to set up a regular "subscription" payment, right? People want to donate to keep the site running, a Patreon account will give them the option of being regularly charged?

edited 14th Jul '14 1:52:51 PM by Rotpar

"But don't give up hope. Everyone is cured sooner or later. In the end we shall shoot you." - O'Brien, 1984
Kilyle Field Primus from Procrastinationville Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Field Primus
#10: Jul 14th 2014 at 9:33:47 PM

I'm not sure what the stipulations are on Patreon about what qualifies and what does not, so perhaps we don't qualify.

All the same, what I was aiming for is what Rotpar said there: a way to set up subscription payments from supporters who have little money but can arrange to pay a couple bucks a month.

I honestly think this would work better than a one-time fundraiser. It's a bit of a hassle to do a payment, or to get a payment started, so doing it with a small payment seems like a big hassle for little benefit to the site - but Patreon is designed for that specifically. What's more, while a fundraiser seems like "everybody contribute now and if you don't have the funds right now don't even bother," Patreon is more designed to have those with funds now start giving now, and later on when more people have funds they can add to the pool, and anyone whose financial situation goes south can opt out later if they need to, so it ought to create a growing fund rather than a shrinking "this is the money we got, how far can we stretch it?" deal.

But, again, might not qualify. Still, ought to be looked into. The model itself is sound, so if Patreon isn't the right site, there might be a similar site that deals with site-maintenance cost stuff. In which case it ought to be well checked over to be sure it's a trustworthy site, of course.

Only the curious have, if they live, a tale worth telling at all.
MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#11: Jul 14th 2014 at 11:07:18 PM

I think my point was that both Kickstarter and Patreon seem to be established under the assumption that you get something for your money, making neither a super-good fit for simply paying for maintenance on an existing site.

Having some sort of "subscription" mechanism sounds like a good idea, with or without Patreon (or some other service that can work with small quantities of money), but as stated I don't know if it would attract enough donors/subscribers for the powers that be to decide it's worth it.

I forget what the minimum amount of payment was to get the "tropie" currency - was it $2, $5, or $10? Whatever it was, it was something you actually got something for, no matter how frivolous, and it still didn't raise enough money for the mods to decide to keep it going.

edited 14th Jul '14 11:11:05 PM by MorganWick

Mullon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#12: Jul 20th 2014 at 10:14:12 AM

But what do I get out of giving money to a Patreon account?

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#13: Jul 20th 2014 at 10:21:12 AM

The work.

Not sure about the model, myself, but that is why people subscribe. Because they want to support the creation/maintenance of the work.

You have to have a pay-your-own-way mindset for it to make sense. Ultimately, it works better than freeloading.

edited 20th Jul '14 10:21:47 AM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Mullon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#14: Jul 20th 2014 at 1:25:08 PM

But the webcomics I read already come out for free. And what guarantee do I have that the artist won't just fuck around with it?

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#15: Jul 20th 2014 at 1:37:10 PM

I think if TVT generated profit, it would be better-spent on hiring a part-time programmer to help out.

There are a dozen reasons why paid moderation could be a bad idea, perhaps chiefly (as Fighteer pointed out) that it's already established as a volunteer gig, and changing that to a paid position is not automatically better, and may even be worse. I do a couple volunteer jobs for which I would not want to be paid; the fact that I do it on my own time makes it more meaningful I think, for one thing it shows that I believe in The Cause. Not to mention the quality level of moderation, which is very high here, and payment might tend to reduce it (especially after a few years of turnover).

edited 20th Jul '14 3:45:52 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#16: Jul 20th 2014 at 1:39:35 PM

[up][up] Same as why webcomics generally do well with Kickstarters. The successful drives are from the webcomics that have already proven capable of producing quality work, normally on a consistent schedule.

Mullon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#17: Jul 20th 2014 at 3:29:30 PM

But the only successful webcomic related Kickstarters I know of are the ones that already established and are asking for something additional, like a printed volume. This looks like its just wanting money for general webcomic stuff.

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#18: Jul 20th 2014 at 4:02:38 PM

1) Do you really think that a webcomic or such without an established fanbase would do any better on Patreon than Kickstarter?

2) Last I checked, this is Wiki Talk. Any discussion of Patreon outside its relevance to us as a website is pretty much off-topic, so let's take it to PMs or a better subforum.

edited 20th Jul '14 4:03:16 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Rotpar Always 3:00am in the Filth from California (Unlucky Thirteen) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Always 3:00am in the Filth
#19: Jul 21st 2014 at 12:11:28 PM

[up][up]

Think of it less of a business transaction, "you pay $X to receive Y service". It's a system to streamline donations or just regularly schedule them. It's an alternate form of the donation button. You want to read TV Tropes or your webcomic for free, that's cool, no problems. But if you want to donate to keep it up and running then Patreon is another tool to do so.

"But don't give up hope. Everyone is cured sooner or later. In the end we shall shoot you." - O'Brien, 1984
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#20: Mar 14th 2015 at 3:10:41 PM

Question: why don't we Patreon TVT itself, and reduce our dependency from advertising, especially given how much people simply block the ads?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#21: Mar 15th 2015 at 3:25:08 AM

There are certain expectations from Patreon users that could become a problem, persay.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#22: Mar 15th 2015 at 6:01:22 AM

Please elaborate. Also, how is Patreon different from, say, Wikipedia's funding system?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Odd1 Still just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
Still just awesome like that
#23: Mar 15th 2015 at 8:29:01 PM

You actually have to offer something new to donors if you support yourself with Patreon, and on a regular basis. Plus, Patreon works via a subscription model, where donors donate their donations every donation periodnote . Donation.

Wikipedia, on the other hand, just runs donation drives every so often and people give them money. Though they're also a much bigger and much more legitimately useful site.

Insert witty 'n clever quip here.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#24: Mar 16th 2015 at 3:24:58 AM

... We're totally big and legit too... sad

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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