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Changing Carol Danvers' Page Name

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meitah Dark Something of All from Secret Lair Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Dark Something of All
#1: Jul 4th 2014 at 8:17:18 PM

Marvel Comics' Carol Danvers isn't Ms Marvel anymore. She's been Captain Marvel for at least two years, and the Ms Marvel name has been taken by a new character. Shouldn't Carol's page name be changed to reflect that?

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#2: Jul 4th 2014 at 8:45:49 PM

Her name changing doesn't change what she's been called for most of her existence, and presumably what most of the tropes apply to.

Not sure what the policy is on it, though.

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meitah Dark Something of All from Secret Lair Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Dark Something of All
#3: Jul 4th 2014 at 8:54:34 PM

Then can't the title of her character page just be her name, rather than a codename?

Hylarn (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4: Jul 4th 2014 at 8:58:59 PM

Given the number of codenames she's gone through, I think just using her actual name would be the sanest thing

meitah Dark Something of All from Secret Lair Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Dark Something of All
#5: Jul 4th 2014 at 9:06:21 PM

Tbqh, that's probably best for most superhero comics characters, though I think this is slightly more true of Marvel than DC. Everyone who's been around for multiple series has had at least two codenames. Going to any codename's page is p jumbled and confusing, since most of the big ones have had several different characters, and most of them don't have their own pages. Maybe it's time to clean that up?

MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#6: Jul 4th 2014 at 10:31:53 PM

Most pages for codenames that have had several owners tend to be about all of them ecumenically.

If Hank Pym isn't even a redirect, it seems like Carol Danvers would need to get in line.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#7: Jul 4th 2014 at 10:41:39 PM

We tend to do it by code name because most people don't know the actual character name. If you ask the average person who Venom is, they might know that he's the black Spider-Man villain, but they probably won't know Eddie Brock.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
meitah Dark Something of All from Secret Lair Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Dark Something of All
#8: Jul 5th 2014 at 10:12:28 PM

Ok, but neither of those points change the fact that those pages are nigh unreadable, and just about anything would be an improvement over the current system.

And as much as I loathe the character, maybe the title of Pym's trope page should be his name. He's not the only Ant-Man, and that's not his only codename.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#9: Jul 6th 2014 at 12:11:38 AM

Redirects Are Free but use the name more people know as the main title. In Ant Man's case, that's Ant Man, not Hank Pym.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10: Jul 6th 2014 at 12:48:21 AM

I am not sure how the page's title affects the readability of the page. The pages for such characters are usually biographies, of course they'll be long whatever title they are under. In that regard, just add redirects (in the proper namespaces!) to the page and mention their other names in the page.

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meitah Dark Something of All from Secret Lair Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Dark Something of All
#11: Jul 6th 2014 at 5:40:05 AM

Perhaps I'm wording this wrong? It's that the character pages for codenames that have had multiple characters are such jumbled messes where all of the characters' unique tropes get lumped in with each other's. It seems to be a problem with a lot of the comic book Legacy Character pages.

But in Carol Danvers' case, she's pretty well equally well-known as both of the legacy codenames she's used, and since those names both go to other pages, or could just as easily in the case of Ms Marvel, why not just title her page with her own name?

MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#12: Jul 6th 2014 at 5:26:27 PM

Now I may be wrong about this, but I believe the tropes on each page are only those tropes that apply to each holder of the name while they were holding that name, unless perhaps they've had other names that don't have pages at all.

Most of the Comic Book pages for superhero comics, in theory, attempt to extend the idea of a single, well-defined work as far as it'll fit the format, so in theory most of the pages' names are about actual comics by those names in all their incarnations, regardless of the changing subjects so long as there's some sort of thread that connects them all (hence, Action Comics). Of course, not all comic book pages are about characters with their own books or stick to each character's own book, but each page sort of treats each title as one single history, one story, that remains constant throughout each specific subject or holder of that title, and so is only a "jumbled mess" if you're trying to read them a certain way that they're not intended to be read. This works better for some titles than others (generally it works better for DC than Marvel, as Marvel seems more prone to re-use a title just because they have the copyright rather than connect them as proper Legacy Characters, but there are plenty of exceptions on both sides), and superhero comics have more than a little in common with pro wrestling and music in that the pages are as much about specific characters as defined "works", but that's the theory. In addition, certain specific runs by specific creators, such as Batgirl (2009) and Grant Morrison's Batman, have their own separate pages.

There is a certain bias on many of these pages towards whatever the most prominent or well-known holder of the title is, which would almost assuredly be Carol Danvers for Ms. Marvel and more likely than not wouldn't be her for Captain Marvel, although I don't pay as much attention to comics as I used to so who knows if that's changed in the space of a couple of years. On the other hand, one could argue that Danvers' entire career as Ms. Marvel, starting as it did as a Distaff Counterpart of Captain Marvel, fits into the overall mythology of Captain Marvel. But whichever way you go, probably as many people know of Carol Danvers as do Eddie Brock.

edited 6th Jul '14 5:31:29 PM by MorganWick

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#13: Jul 6th 2014 at 9:19:32 PM

Remember too, that the focus is always on actual media and not fictional characters. Multiple people have held the title of Batman and so the page is about Batman media, we don't have a separate page on Bruce Wayne. In the case of characters like The Joker and Lex Luthor, who have a huge influence across a variety of individual media lines (whether it be TV shows, comics, movies, etc) but have never really had their own line. The purpose of their pages is about their persona, influence across those media and real world connotations, not just providing a biography for them.

Jay Garrick, Barry Allen and Wally West all took on the role of The Flash at different times, and the page lists all of them sequentially, it doesn't refer you to individual character pages because they don't have any real influence on the DC universe outside of that comic line.

meitah Dark Something of All from Secret Lair Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Dark Something of All
#14: Jul 11th 2014 at 3:06:18 AM

If the point isn't to have a biography of the character, then someone should clean up almost all of the other character pages in that section, since that's what they're used for.

meitah Dark Something of All from Secret Lair Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Dark Something of All
#15: Jul 11th 2014 at 3:26:19 AM

Morgan Wick, I think you're missing the point of any repository of knowledge if you're going by what most people already know. The point is to expand peoples' knowledge.

That said, a lot of characters in comics have been around for so long that they influence media by themselves, no matter what codename they use at any given time. My dad grew up as a fan of all of the Avengers, and followed most of the characters through several different name changes. I'm willing to bet he's far from alone in knowing most characters by civilian name rather than codename. I also know for a fact that I'm far from alone in only coming into comics since Danvers became Captain Marvel. There's this whole thing called Carol Corp that's arisen since the promotion was announced, in case you've missed it.

Besides, this has already been done for several other characters. Jessica Jones, Jean Grey, Lex Luthor, Nick Fury and several others have their names as their page names. Carol Danvers would hardly be a first in that regard.

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#16: Jul 11th 2014 at 5:40:15 AM

Please remind me what the "code name" for Lex Luthor or Nick Fury is, because I'm pretty sure that they've held their names for over thirty years (I'd guess over 50, but I'm not an American comics fan).

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shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#17: Jul 11th 2014 at 10:23:18 AM

All of those are examples where a character is better known, or only known by their real name rather than a code name. That's not the same situation at all.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
rexpensive Since: Feb, 2014
#18: Jul 11th 2014 at 2:10:12 PM

I feel like when you have a superhero title that multiple characters have had crossed with a character who has had multiple titles that making separate pages for the title and the characters is a good idea. Carol has been a few different things, including Ms. Marvel, and Ms. Marvel has been the name of multiple people. So if you only use on or the other than the Ms. Marvel page is going to be every hero character Carol has ever been (Ms Marvel, Captain Marvel, Warbird, Captain Carol Danvers) plus every person who has ever been Ms Marvel (Carol Danvers, Sharon Ventura, Karla Sofen, Kamala Khan) plus every the alternate identities of every character who has been Ms Marvel (She-Thing, Moonstone) or at least copy the information to the pages for those titles. And keep in mind that multiple people have been Captain Marvel and multiple people have been Moonstone and multiple people have been Warbird!

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#19: Jul 11th 2014 at 2:14:17 PM

Again, I'm not very familiar with comics... but some of those look like "Kal-El was Batman at one time, so he needs to be listed on the Batman page".

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meitah Dark Something of All from Secret Lair Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Dark Something of All
#20: Jul 12th 2014 at 5:26:58 PM

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that Danvers has spent years as Captain Marvel, and isn't likely to be demoted now that there's a new Ms Marvel. That's different from one character using a codename once.

Plus, giving more characters their own pages separate from their codenames helps keep the codename pages from becoming character biographies. (And if you don't think that's mostly how they're used, I invite you to look at the Captain America and Hawkeye pages.)

edited 12th Jul '14 5:27:36 PM by meitah

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#21: Jul 13th 2014 at 10:22:56 PM

You're misinterpreting the point. Biographies are fine, but the list of media they appear in and the tropes pertaining to them are more important. It's also not about changing the page according to the most recent developments but providing a history of the character. I'll admit I'm not familiar with this particular topic, but is Carol Danvers a distinct enough individual from the Ms. Marvel title to warrant her own page? That's the primary question.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#22: Jul 13th 2014 at 11:21:04 PM

The point of these pages is NOT to be about a specific person so much as to catelogue personas that reach through multiple works and media. A page about Carol Danvers isn't useful. A page about the Ms Marvel title and how the persona shows up in a number of works serving as a cross reference for comic book pages is what we are looking for.

A page on Carol Danvers doesn't accomplish the point of the individual character pages for comic books. She herself just isn't as widespread through media as Ms Marvel.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
meitah Dark Something of All from Secret Lair Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Dark Something of All
#23: Jul 14th 2014 at 7:40:06 PM

You guys are missing the fact that there already is essentially a Carol Danvers page, and a separate page for Kamala Khan's Ms Marvel. (Yes, I realize it's ostensibly for the current Ms Marvel 2014 book, but it's on the Marvel characters page, which implies that it's a character sheet.)

It's not like I want to completely overhaul the current system, though the one we have doesn't work nearly so well as you people seem to think. (You use the argument that these aren't individuals' biographies, and when I point out that that's how they're being used for most male characters, suddenly that's just fine? Honestly.) I'm talking about something that already happened, and how to make it look less out of place on the index page.

edited 14th Jul '14 7:43:03 PM by meitah

MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#24: Jul 14th 2014 at 11:19:17 PM

I'm assuming the parenthetical statement is referring to this:

You're misinterpreting the point. Biographies are fine, but the list of media they appear in and the tropes pertaining to them are more important.
Which explicitly says that a) no one ever said these pages couldn't be character biographies, only that b) their role as biographies is secondary to the other purposes and cannot be the central purpose of the page, let alone the determining factor in how the pages are organized. Forcing them to be character biographies at the expense of more important considerations is the problem.

(Not that the current system necessarily works as well as it should, but I don't know what would be better.)

edited 14th Jul '14 11:20:56 PM by MorganWick

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#25: Jul 15th 2014 at 12:52:31 AM

Character sheets are a different topic altogether, as they are tied to a specific media and have a grouping of other characters. Character pages, like the one we are discussing, are a different issue and are based on what we are discussing. Presentation is sometimes an issue (I groan more than laugh at the Self-Demonstrating pages) but in terms of wiki organization the page in question has no problems.

I have no idea where the misogyny accusation is coming from.


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