Japan and 'Otaku'

I'd like to ask one thing about Japan and their treatment of Otaku.

What I know is that Otaku is something of an insult in Japan, something equal to what we call 'Weeaboo'. The criminals that also admit on liking anime also didn't make things better. Bottom line, Japanese doesn't like Otaku.

Yet...

I wonder... In Japan, if they meet a man who openly professes he likes anime, can talk about them in good details, but he doesn't go as far as collecting every piece of merchandise, celebrate birthday of a fictional character, they can socialize well and get a steady job while indulging with their likings of anime... Would the Japanese normal people call them Otaku as well and treat them with similar contempt? What do they call that, then? I think that's where Westerners would call 'Otaku', it didn't have such bad rap there (but on the other hand, 'weeaboo' is pretty close with the disgusting Otaku stereotype in Japan)

I tried translating things like 'Nerd', 'Geek', 'Enthusiast' to Japan, and all I get is just 'Otaku'.

With the exposure of media just showing a lot of 'loser otaku', I think it's no wonder Japanese thinks of Otaku in a disgusted manner. So my question is, do 'moderate otaku' exist in Japan, and... are they also treated with contempt like every other 'loser otaku' in Japan?

I hope with this, I can get clear answer and anyone who happens to like anime well enough and also capable of socializing... won't have to fear about being ostracized if they plan to move in to Japan, or even try to hide all otaku-ness. Of course I may be somehow wrong in this...

There are three often under-discussed things to consider:

1. Anime specifically is a super-niche medium in Japan, comparable to comic books in the west. There are millions of people who recognize The Avengers, while only a very special breed of neckbeard actually reads avengers comics. Likewise, the number of Japanese people who are fine with animesque drawing styles, and who read manga or light novels, is far bigger than the anime fandom.

2. Yes, there are some clues that "otaku" is used as pretty much Japanese for "geek". Former prime minister Taro Aso self-identifies as Otaku, reads 10-20 manga magazines a week, including Rozen Maiden. (see previous point about how something like Rozen Maiden is not grounds for impeachment: It's printed on paper, so it's seen as totally different). There was a study, that identified 25% of the total Japanese population as otaku.

3. Remember that most of the things you know about "loser otaku" stereotypes, comes from anime itself. You have to take into account that you are:

A) seeing stylized archetypes, just like the Hollywood Nerd. Even if they are stylized in the different direction, it's still a trope rather than an accurate reflection of reality.

B) Anime writers are older than anime viewers, so there is a Two Decades Behind lag regarding cultural changes.

C) Anime viewers can have many reasons to enjoy watching exaggerated portrayals of their own stigmatization, from indulgent self-pity (look how badly misunderstood we are!), to feeling good about how they are not THAT MUCH otaku as the portrayed characters.

edited 20th Jul '14 4:27:47 PM by Ever9

Does this refer to the general Japanese population or are you referring to just adults when you talk about anime's niche place?

Yeah, I was specifically talking about adult animation for geeks, as compared to adult manga for geeks.

To continue the analogy about the anime industry being Japan's equivalent of the western comic book industry, daytime children's anime could be compared to newspaper comics: technically a mainstream example of it's medium, but not really changing anyone's perception about the core Industry's respectability.

Honestly, that all seems more analogous to Western Animation in general. Which makes sense.

Although I'm given to understand manga is not analogous to western comics - it's pretty widespread.

Manga is much more widespread but Anime is super niche and is considered either for kids or loser otaku.

The best way to phrase Otaku is "Obsessed."

Like there are military otaku who stuff their rooms full of tanks and stuff like that, and its seen as unhealthy.

I have a feeling that different cultural attitudes and daily schedules have something to do with that. Living space in Japan is expensive and usually small, and they do a lot of travel to and from work, usually via public transport, from what I know, and portable entertainment, such as smartphones, handheld gaming devices and books are ideal for keeping oneself busy on the go. It's also why home consoles have seen a severe drop in popularity in Japan, people just don't have much space for them in their home, or even the time anymore, while smartphones and the 3DS are still selling.

edited 21st Jul '14 1:18:04 AM by Cronosonic

The main difference is, that an adult-oriented western animation industry doesn't really exist as a consistent industry.

There are specific series becoming successful once under a blue moon, under an benevolently experimental TV studio, but we have no established chain of studios studio that are putting out new niche animated adaptions of bestseller works on a seasonal basis.

I compared it to western comics, because there does exist an entrenched core fandom culture, even if it's extremely insular in both.

From my understanding, manga (along with light novels), might be not entirely mainstream-mainstream, but at least geek-mainstream, like AAA video games, or Game of Thrones, for us, in that some old-fashioned people might give you a hard time for reading them, but they are also quite a defining element of youth pop culture.

edited 21st Jul '14 1:27:50 AM by Ever9

Manga i think is pretty much straight mainstream over there. The Japanese read a lot more (in the sense of using paper as a medium, period, not just books or newspapers or magazines, but also manga and light novels) than many other cultures, so manga appealing to an individual's taste is likely to be a part of the average Japanese person's media diet.

I think manga is to Japanese mainstream what Candy Crush is to American mainstream.

Both are a geeky guilty pleasure that "everyone" (or most people) likes to do, but only in a "disposable", "non-serious" context. You might see a businessman enjoying it on a train, or on lunch break, but not much more into it than that. Being a hardcore Candy Crush player (to the point of competition or studying the complex strategies) would likely be as geeky to us as a hardcore manga collector in Japan.

There's a nerd threshold in all interests, no matter how mainstream. The more mainstream it is makes it more respectable to be a nerd in that subject, like sports or popular music, the real hardcore fans will always be outside the mainstream.

It also depends on what kind of geek you are perceived as. A guy who spends his free time assembling Gundam models, may be seen as having a somewhat weird hobby, but would also be seen as being generally harmless and if he can socialize normally he wouldn't really be stigmatized for it. On the other hand, someone who is really into lolicon hentai (to take an extreme example) would be seen as a social pariah and potentially dangerous.

But as with everything it's also a question of moderation. If you spend all your time on one interest (that isn't related to your job) to the point of interference with your normal life, it would probably be seen as bad, even if the thing itself is not particularly controversial.

At least that's my impression from talking with Japanese people.

Pretty much, it's the "interference with normal socialization" thing that is the other half of the "geek threshold" coin, and that would hold most places in the world. Can you have a "normal" conversation with people? Can you live a normal life with your hobby?

Although you are correct that it is moreso about the "public interference" thing that holds sway in Japan. There's a great lack of caring about what goes on behind closed doors in Japan, so long as you are leading a normal public life.

(except for recreational drug use. That country flips its shit over recreational drug use. You think America's weed rules are bad?)

Though for the record, disposability might be another one of those things where we misunderstand Japanese attitudes when comparing them to our expectations.

Japanese culture in general has a thing for impermanent, modest, perishable executions, from architecture to eating utensils. It's part of the whole wabi-sabi aesthetic. Manga are black and white, they look like rough sketches compared to almost photorealistic western comics, and they are printed on the cheapest phonebook paper, but this isn't necessarily a sign of them not being respected.

Otaku Anime are made for a core fandom, and you can still feel the same attitude in their production values. The cheap animation styles, the dozens of new I Ps quickly rotating every season in a rush, the focus on a large quantity of output... Even when it's made for a fandom, it's just relatively more persishable than western works would be expected.

edited 21st Jul '14 12:48:21 PM by Ever9

"In Japan, if they meet a man who openly professes he likes anime, can talk about them in good details, but he doesn't go as far as collecting every piece of merchandise, celebrate birthday of a fictional character, they can socialize well and get a steady job while indulging with their likings of anime... Would the Japanese normal people call them Otaku as well and treat them with similar contempt? What do they call that, then?"

'(Insert name here)-san'.

They wouldn't have a specific term for them, much like us Westerners don't have a specific term for perfectly functional people who happens to like comics in their free time without going to the 'fanboy' lenghts.

edited 24th Jul '14 7:20:52 AM by NapoleonDeCheese

Here's a related question I've always wondered about. You know how in America, we have some who are into Japanese animation. Some even go so far as to say Japanese animation is vastly superior to their own country's output. Is there a reverse of this in Japan? That is, do some Japanese viewers heavily watch American cartoons and consider them superior to Japanese animation?

They do love their Disney.

Peanuts is also fairly big there. The Powerpuff Girls too, to the degree they even made their own animated adaptation. My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic also seems to be very popular in Japan; I know for certain it spans a ton of Japanese fanart. Most of them of the SFW variety, even!

But I've read American comic books are incredibly difficult to find and expensive in Japan, so they haven't ever been too popular there.

Should clarify, I know that certain American series/movies have fanbases in Japan; it's why there was a South Park reference in FLCL, for example. But are there some fans who shun their own country's output in favor of American animation, like some Americans do with anime?

edited 24th Jul '14 1:04:31 PM by speedyboris

Don't forget Wacky Races, The Simpsons, Sponge Bob Square Pants, Tom And Jerry... all rather popular with the Japanese.

I'm pretty sure people like that exist in Japan. Maybe there's even a word for them.

edited 24th Jul '14 4:15:06 PM by Aldo930

So if Otaku are being so looked down upon in Japan, why is it that people in other countries proudly use it to label themselves as those who love anime, manga, etc?

Because they don't understand what the word means.

Exactly. They don't realize that that word is an insult, an extreme version of "loser, nerd, virgin" all rolled into one. Hence, I prefer not to use it unless in it's proper context: Insulting basement-dwellers.

It's the same reason there's a staggering American fanbase for Unofficial Sentai Akibaranger, despite that show going well out of it's way to show what pathetic losers the main cast all are. They don't realize they're being insulted and take it at face value.

I've seen some people that know about its connotations in Japan, but continue using it in their country anyway because their country is not Japan, and thus due to the wonders of language, the word changes meaning in other places. It's like other words in any language that change their meanings with time and use. Is that supposed to make things better or worse with regards to using the word Otaku?