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From the trope page itself: —- Also commonly known in comics fandoms as "Fight Then Team Up, " or the "Marvel Misunderstanding" (even in the Marvel Bullpen!) The phrase probably first comes from the 1930s Popeye comic strip as a catchphrase of Wimpy, who often gets Popeye to fight big tough guys he's wronged - thus becoming a Got Volunteered situation. "Let's You and Him Fight" is also the title of a Fleischer Studios Popeye short revolving around a boxing match between Popeye and Bluto. It also appears in Eric Berne's 1964 book Games People Play as one of the identified behavior patterns, although he used it to describe what we call Triang Relations. — the current name sounds like dialogue and comes from an obscure reference that only tangentially fits the description. The laconic is "Heroes fighting heroes due to confusion, egos or some other factor" and is usually used for two heroes fighting each other when they first meet in a crossover. The name, as per the description given, comes from either a sidekick tricking the hero into fighting a third party for him (Wimpy explanation which is better as Got Volunteered) or a hero vs a villain (Popeye vs Bluto) or as another name for Triang Relations. Seeing as the trope page itself spells out how its a terrible name and suggests better ones, can we change to one of the better ones so its easier to find?
ZzzzzzzzzzValid points. I already took out the sinkhole to Triang Relations, though, because that page is about the various combinations of attraction that a love triangle can take. It has nothing to do with the trope described on Let's You and Him Fight.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
The imaginative Christian AspergerThis isn't necessarily a crossover trope, as the Cave Story example were to tell you.
I'd suggest changing to something along the lines of "necessary unnecessary fight" or "obligatory battle."
The trope page suggests Fight Then Team Up and Marvel Misunderstanding, neither of which have to be crossover specific. And both of which already act as redirects. We could expand Marvel Misunderstanding to Heroic Misunderstanding so it could be two heroes from the same series/franchise too. We could make it Strangers On The Same Side or Heroic Intruder just something short to imply that two guys with the same affiliation mistake each other for being foes. Ooh maybe Same Affiliation Foes? I'm not partial to anything really just the current one has got to go.
edited 23rd May '14 6:56:27 AM by acrobox
Marvel Misunderstanding indicates a bit of Trope-Namer Syndrome. On the other hand, Heroic Misunderstanding sounds a lot more like Poor Communication Kills. But since Fight Then Team Up is a valid redirect, without having the problems of Marvel Misunderstanding, this should be the name to use... so long as any potential confusion between that phrase and general fighting amongst Vitriolic Best Buds is resolvable.
Christmas wormsAye, rename this one. I am not decided on expanding or not.
I can safely say this is one of the oldest tropes on the site, the name has always been a little clunky but it is telling that the original intention is not so much "heroes mistake each other for the bad guys" as it is an excuse for Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny (the pictures are virtually identical). I mean, just read the name Let's You and Him Fight carefully. I will say straight up that I don't like a name like Fight Then Team Up, because it is just as clunky even if it is more accurate. It's more of a description of the trope rather than a name. Heroic Misunderstanding is okay in principle, but I think the trope is slightly broader than a misunderstanding. It's more about a conflict of interests that could be a misunderstanding or it could just be a personality clash that makes them hate each other even though they are ostensibly on the same side. But the core of the trope follows these points:
Welcome, traveller, welcome to OmskThe problem is, the name Let's You and Him Fight doesn't in the least sound like it means that. I always assumed it was about a Manipulative Bastard tricking someone into fighting someone else for him.
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
^ thats exactly what it does mean according to the trope description itself. The problem with the name is it implies the the point is that a third party is getting the two heroes to fight. Usually they just fight on their own.
edited 25th May '14 12:51:32 AM by acrobox
Calling for Crowner I think we're mostly in agreement that we need a name change.
Formerly known as OreochanI think we should have a wick check to see how this is used before we decide to do a crowner. I'll try to come up one if I'm able to.
edited 28th Jun '14 6:46:58 PM by MacronNotes
Formerly known as OreochanOkay, before I start the wick check, I have a question to ask; is "Manipulative Bastard tricks two heroes into fighting each other" covered by Let's You and Him Fight or is that another trope?
Christmas wormsYep, that is exactly what Let's You and Him Fight is about.
edited 9th Jul '14 12:29:32 AM by SeptimusHeap
The description as written implies that the bad guy does not have to have manipulated the heroes. I feel like a supertrope for heroes fighting each other with a trope about them being manipulated into by the baddie as a subtrope might be best here.
The imaginative Christian AspergerThen there's a problem: Either, it's a sign that there's misuse (if the trope's really about what he said) or it's a sign that the name implies something too specific for what the trope's about (if it's not). Either way, there's a problem with the trope.
edited 8th Jul '14 11:22:43 AM by KarjamP
Formerly known as OreochanHere's a wick check for 50 wicks of Let's You and Him Fight as promised.
"Manipulative Bastard tricks two characters or heroes into fighting each other."
Zero Context Examples/Unclear
Heroes fight each other due to a misunderstanding.
edited 9th Jul '14 1:53:21 PM by MacronNotes
......34% unambiguously correct usage? That's pretty terrible. We definitely need to rename this then
The description says a villain manipulating the situation is entirely optional. The laconic doesn't even mention the possibility, only a generic "or some other factor". The trope as currently written clearly isn't exclusively about villains manipulating heroes into fighting each other.
Formerly known as OreochanWell, in any case, I think the trope needs fixing. As mentioned, Let's You and Him Fight's name implies that a third party manipulates the heroes into fighting each other while the description states it's a variant of the trope and the laconic is "Heroes fighting heroes due to confusion, egos or some other factor." which is a little broader than the trope's description. I also find the description confusing and unfocused. The first paragraph is about "two heroes (who are strangers to each other) fight due to a mistaking each other as the enemy" But the rest of the paragraphs focus on the "The Big Bad or Manipulative Bastard tricks the heroes into fighting each other" variant. And then the fifth paragraph is about the Big Bad manipulating other bad guys (instead of the good guys themselves) getting rid of the heroes or other villains for him. The next sentence includes another variant in which the Guile Hero tricks their foes into fighting each other for their convenience... I guess this trope isn't limited to heroes and the characters just need to be on the same side then? So, in short, I think the trope needs be renamed and get a clearer description. I also feel that "a third party manipulates two characters into fighting each other" should be split off from Let's You and Him Fight.
Io vs JupiterLet's You and Him Fight always sounded to me like two people decide to fight each other for no particular reason, other than maybe because they're bored or they just like fighting for its own sake. In any case, I agree that the name is bad and should be changed. I don't have a good alternate suggestion, though. The trope definition, to my understanding, is "two characters that would normally be on the same side end up fighting each other because of lack of communication (often for contrived reasons to add drama or just as an excuse to have a really cool fight between two heroes)". Being manipulated by a third party into fighting each other can be an example, but the core definition is "two people fighting, who wouldn't if they actually talked to each other".
Mayday MaydayHonestly, this name seems fine. I think the idea that they have to team up afterwards is where the problem lies. Excise that as a necessity and there is no more problem. Just make it two parties that really have no business fighting but do so out of misunderstanding, sometimes one cultivated by a third party;teaming up afterwards against said third party common but optional (as Popeye was never going to clobber Wimpy)
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
That sounds to me like we have a case of Missing Sub-Trope Syndrome. Which probably is the case. So how about this:
edited 17th Sep '14 5:48:11 PM by DonaldthePotholer
Total posts: 29
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