Expy Cleanup Thread

Remembered an example I wanted to bring up on both Star Wars: Darth Vader and its character page regarding the character Doctor Aphra, which I'm guessing were written by the same person:

• Expy:
  • Doctor Aphra is a female Indiana Jones, only IN SPACE! Personality wise she is very similar to Ahsoka Tano, which is probably why Vader acts so much like his old self around her.
  • IG-90 is basically IG-88 with red plating.
  • Triple Zero and BT-1 are a pair of Robotic Psychopaths fond of Black Comedy, making them very similar to HK-47. They are also dark versions of C-3PO and R2-D2. Killing their creators reminisces the background of IG-88 in the Legends continuity as well
  • Inspector Thanoth is a skilled detective who wears a monocle, reminiscent of Arsène Lupin.
  • The entire Shu-Torun culture and their visual design feels like something out of the Metabarons Universe.

And:

• Expy: Looks and acts like a female version of Indiana Jones, albeit one who is pretty morally ambiguous. She also bears some resemblance to Padmé and Ahsoka Tano at times, a factor that probably is the main reason why Vader isn't playing the Bad Boss card on her.

So I started reading the comic and Aphra is indeed an Adventure Archaeologist and definitely has some Indiana Jones shout outs (as well as a Belloc shout out in her own series). And the example is right that she's definitely something of an Evil Counterpart of Han and the Indiana Jones references call attention to this.

However and this is a big however, calling her an Expy seems like a huge stretch. The Ashoka and Padme connection seems like a particularly stretch and makes me think whoever wrote the example is a shipper. It's not uncommon for female characters to have an energetic personality and Aphra falls into a particular trope (although she often shows a serious/weathered and cynical side which makes the comparison even weaker).

Needless to say the other examples seem weak. One particular one that I wanted to comment on since I'm somewhat familiar is with is Inspector Thanoth. I do agree that he'smodled after a Great Detective type, bout I doubt he's an Expy.

Incidentally, I did a quick search and as I had seen in a more recent interview, the shout outs are confirmed by Word of God. But Shout-Out =/ Expy.

edited 13th Jan '17 5:13:06 PM by Hodor2

I'm not entirely sure whether Aphra should really be called an Expy of Indiana Jones, as while there are deliberate similarities and shout-outs, it's really more of a sort of Actor Allusion gag, in keeping with the (accurate) description of a number of the Darth Vader characters being Evil Counterparts to Original Trilogy heroes. It also might be legit to call her an Evil Counterpart to Padme - it's certainly an existing interpretation - but again, that doesn't equal Expy and indeed can actively counteract it.

The other examples are also weak - the Thanoth one particularly stands out as a case of Fan Myopia because several of the people I know who read the series have compared him to Sherlock Holmes instead. As you say, it's really just a case of the general trope instead of any particular character.

edited 13th Jan '17 5:46:18 PM by nrjxll

Well put. To clarify, I do not think Aphra is an Expy of either Indiana Jones or Han Solo- just that the Indiana Jones references are clearly there and play into her being an Evil Counterpart of Han.

Hmm. Didn't really think of Sherlock Holmes with the Inspector although I can see it in terms of his loyalty to the Empire he serves (with the twist that it's an Evil Empire). Also, I couldn't point to a specific reference but for what it's worth I was also thinking of any Gundam show in which there's someone who is a Noble Top Enforcer on the Space Nazi side.

I wasn't suggesting Inspector Thanoth was an expy of Sherlock Holmes - just that if some people see him as similar to Holmes and some people see him as similar to Lupin, then it's pretty clear he's not an expy at all, just a member of the Great Detective archetype they all share, and people seeing a specific character are just doing so because they're bigger fans of that particular detective.

A few from Characters.Little Witch Academia:

• Expy: Of Simon the Digger as both characters have two legendary items which are useful against much more bigger foes, they are also both The Determinator which helps them becoming stronger as they contain lots of potential and also follow an idol that ends up being a mentor.
  • That is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too broad an archetype.

• Expy: A rough-and-tumble, fanservice-y tomboy with a bright red streak in her short hair...Ryuko, is that you?
  • Seems a little weak. I don't know either work but the only thing really distinct that's not part of the standard archetype here is the red streak in her hair. And looking at the picture, that's not even a streak...

• Expy: She's constantly merges technology with her powers turning her and her magic abilities part robot basically becoming a cyborg and she's also German. She's a female Stroheim.
  • ... this is literally just "German and a cyborg"? And it sounds like this character even being a cyborg is a stretch? No. Just no.

edited 30th Jan '17 7:54:51 AM by Larkmarn

From Characters.Pokemon Villain Team Skull:

• Expy:
  • The comparisons between her and Ragyo Kiryuin are simply too obvious to ignore; Bright clothing and extravagant hairstyle? Check. Obsessed with beauty and an Eldritch Abomination, eventually fusing with said Abomination for her final battle? Check. Controls a large company that's really famous? Check. Controlled every aspect of her children's lives for who knows how long? Oh, you'd better believe that's a check.
  • Heck, even her children get in on this a little: Lillie wears primarily white (like Satsuki) and Gladion wears primarily black and red (like Ryuko).
  • While Lusamine doesn't molest her daughter and son due to obvious reasons, it has been noted that the zoom in to Lusamine's face as she's smiling when Nihilego appears in the Aether Foundation is similar to that of Ragyo's in the bath scene. You can compare the two◊ here◊.

Example Indentation aside, anyone familiar with both Pokemon Sun and Moon and Kill La Kill to comment on this? Feels more like Counterpart Comparison than Expy but I can't be certain.

That was already brought up last page, and I was in favor of cutting it then.

I'd say tentative yes on Lusamine being an expy of Ragyo (she definitely gave me Ragyo vibes) but not the Lillie or Gladion examples.

edited 30th Jan '17 1:11:54 PM by PhiSat

Another Pokemon/Kill La Kill one from here:

• Expy: Probably of the Primordial Life Fiber as both are parasitic aliens that are classed as an Eldritch Abomination that merge with the Big Bad who is an Abusive Parent. Nihilego and the Primordial Life Fiber are both considered as a Greater-Scope Villain as well.

Anytime the writer feels the need to add a weasel word like "probably" the example has to go. See the note at the top of this page - it has to be unambiguous.

Ditto. Hence why I also was in favor of axing the previous "example" - the language was trying way too hard to make an argument for something that shouldn't be arguable.

Yeah, Examples Are Not Arguable. I say cut it.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Aug 15th 2019 at 10:19:18 AM

The Team Skrull one for Lusamine might be, but the example as written doesn't provide any support. It lists similarities, but doesn't address whether "the copy [needs to] also fill[s] the same role in the work and serve the same purpose within the story."

The Doctor Aphra one also fails for me. "Major traits or characteristics being very different between the two characters is enough to make a character not an expy". One of the main characteristics of Indiana Jones is that he is not morally ambiguous. If Dr Aphrah is, then that's a major characteristic being very different between the two.

edited 7th Feb '17 8:56:08 PM by Madrugada

I looked in the Animated Film section of Expy, and I saw the Disney examples and thought "Those aren't examples."

Characters recycling animation (especially when it was simply to save money) or being voiced by the same person does not make them an expy. Baloo and Little John are not expies of each other, because their similarities are a consequence of their environment - animals voiced by the same actor and drawn by the same people. Them looking nigh-identical is certainly a direct consequence of recycling art, but it wasn't the goal. IE Disney didn't really WANT anybody to notice.

The other Disney examples aren't much either; similar art does not make for an expy when it was necessary or easier to keep them similar. Similar personalities including "Know it all" and "Vain" don't make an expy either. It says so right there in the first post of the thread starter.

I also propose changing the Animated Film image since Baloo is not an Expy. Something from Wreck It Ralph or The Incredibles would work.

edited 15th Feb '17 2:08:07 PM by Tightwire

Bumping this post which had no responses: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13983140170A37263400&page=8#180

On the Ragyo thing this comment seems to say it quite nicely

- Shitty parent who disowns their children

- Owner of large corporation to make the world a more beautiful place

- Clicks heels on floor when pissed

- Would rather spread alien lifeforms across the globe than spend time with their children

- Ultimately fuses with said alien lifeform in the end

- Is the true antagonist of story, after a group of decoys take the mantle for a good portion of it

- Husband seemingly disappears off the face of the planet

- Her two children have a white color scheme and a red/black color scheme

- Being the mother of the red and black child is a twist in the story

- Red and black child develops close bond with a hybrid created to combat the aliens and both become stronger through The Power of Friendship

- Also the red and black child gets abandoned (This won't make it or break it but just something I'll like to point out there)

- Final fight takes place away from earth

That cannot be considered vague. Even though these are common tropes to a certain extent it doesn't feel like these are coincidences. The problem is there is no Word of God. Also one last thing is that Studio TRIGGER/Gainax worked on the Pokemon movies for animation and also Pokemon XY&Z and Ragyo Kiryuin is a Studio TRIGGER character.

edited 23rd Feb '17 12:17:28 PM by ReynTime250

Those are all common tropes. So you've demonstrated similarity. You haven't demonstrated that the later character is a deliberate copy of the earlier one.

A lot of people believe they are deliberate for this following reason. The Pokemon Company and the staff that worked on Kill La Kill have been pretty close for a long time. They worked on the Pokemon movies for the animation (It states on this very site) and later on Pokemon X&Y and Pokemon XY&Z. Studio TRIGGER has also referenced Pokemon in Kill la Kill. There's 4 characters called the Elite Four in the Kanto region that challenge Ryuko to a Boss Rush. Lastly some Studio TRIGGER artists have drawn Pokemon material on their Twitter. There's no Word of God but with this argument I don't think we need it.

edited 25th Feb '17 6:26:20 AM by ReynTime250

Also slightly unrelated to my other post which is why I'm not putting it in the edit section is that Ragyo is classed as an Expy of Queen Zeal. If it is a common archetype than due to Queen Zeal having a completely different personality than Ragyo she shouldn't count either. Just saying.

I don't think that can ever be proven. There is strong evidence but without Word of God to confirm or deny it it will always be a subjective opinion, no matter how many of the fans share it. And it's not like Game Freak would just come out and say something on the matter without potential legal repercussions.

At this point it might be better to just add that the character that one is an expy of must be limited to works that are also:

• Done by the same company
• created by the same author or character designer
• Or Public Domain Characters (and even that might be too iffy)

or just make it YMMV since there would always be a degree of subjectivity involved in this trope, but the former option would likely be too constraining and the latter I feel like was already discussed before to no avail.

edited 27th Feb '17 3:01:09 AM by MorningStar1337

If Studio Trigger would give Pokemon Company legal problems because of a character being similar to another would be stupid and hypocritical because Studio Trigger does reference other shows constantly and Trigger is friends with Game Freak. That said however I agree with everything else. The Expy should be more closer to the Complete Monster trope in how everything needs to go on the thread first. The thread being optional seems to cause issues like this.

edited 27th Feb '17 8:12:13 AM by ReynTime250

Since Expy.The Heroes Of Olympus was recently created, I thought I might bring the examples from that page here to see whether they're valid examples:

• Piper's father is mentioned to have played the King Of Sparta and there is mention of The Poster which the two considered funny until it hit the Internet.

• There are several similarities between Annabeth and Reyna, the praetor of Camp Jupiter, in The Mark of Athena. Annabeth immediately notices some of them when she first meets her:
  • Both are considered the female leaders of their respective camps and are highly respected by their fellow campers.
  • Both have or were going to have a romantic relationship with the male leaders of their camps: Annabeth has one with Percy, while Reyna would have had one with Jason if he hadn't been kidnapped by Hera/Juno.
  • Both refuse to believe the worst has happened to their significant other. Annabeth is out searching for Percy throughout The Lost Hero, while Reyna refuses to hold an election for Jason's replacement as praetor despite others' pestering her for it, as she believes Jason is still alive.
  • Both of their love interests (Percy for Annabeth and Jason for Reyna) have a problem of being unable to pick up on Annabeth and Reyna's emotions or feelings.
  • Both of their love interests denied or deny an attraction to them. Percy doesn't realize how much he loves Annabeth until The Last Olympian, while Jason repeatedly tells his girlfriend Piper that he never was in love with Reyna. Despite Jason saying this, after he reclaims his memories in The Lost Hero, his memories of Reyna make him question his feelings toward Piper.
  • Both were involved in a love triangle with their love interest: Annabeth was in a love triangle with Percy and Rachel Elizabeth Dare in The Battle of the Labyrinth and The Last Olympian, while Reyna was in a love triangle with Jason and Piper McLean in The Mark of Athena, although Jason states that he never felt that way towards Reyna, even though Piper believes otherwise.
  • Both have been on a quest with their love interest; every quest Annabeth ever went on was with Percy (with the exception of her mission to reclaim he Athena Parthenos from Arachne) while Reyna and Jason once visited Charleston, South Carolina on a quest together.
  • Both of their love lives were interfered with by Hera/Juno and Aphrodite/Venus; Hera/Juno kidnapped Percy and Jason and sent them to the opposite camp, while Aphrodite/Venus promised to make Annabeth and Percy's love life interesting (r.e. tragic) and said something to Reyna in Charleston that caused her to never act the same around Jason again.
  • Both are forced to hold an expression of fearlessness in public to prevent spreading panic throughout their forces. Annabeth even notices this whenever she first meets Reyna in The Mark of Athena, and it is implied Reyna notices this as well.
  • Both are very good at reading others' emotions and deducing motivations and/or feelings, while also hiding their own.
  • Both have a fondness for architecture, as they both were seen admiring New Rome in The Mark of Athena.
  • Both have knowledge of the others' culture, and do not judge them for it.
  • Both are the children of a war goddess; Annabeth is the daughter of Athena, the Greek goddess of wisdom, war, and battle strategy, while Reyna is the daughter of Bellona, the Roman goddess of war.
  • Both had a crush on Percy Jackson. Annabeth states that she has a crush on Percy since they first meet when they were twelve, while Reyna attempts to convince Percy to become praetor and become her "friend", which both Percy and Annabeth interpret as Reyna making a move on him.
  • Both visited Circe's Spa and Resort in the Sea of Monsters and met the other while they were there; Annabeth and Percy visited the Spa while looking for the Golden Fleece, and Reyna was one of Circe's assistants at the Spa and Resort. The two met while there; Reyna was one of Circe's attendants who combed Annabeth's hair and gave her a makeover.
  • Both are considered scary by a demigod of the prophecy; Hazel and Frank are both somewhat intimidated by Reyna, while Leo has been scared of Annabeth ever since they met at the Grand Canyon while wearing her "give me Percy Jackson or I'll kill you" look.
  • Both ran away from home; Annabeth ran from her father and stepmother's house in San Francisco after being attacked by spiders for three nights in a row, while Reyna and her sister Hylla ran away from San Juan and became Circe's attendants at her spa.

• Jason and Percy are nearly expies of one another and share a lot of similarities, but have enough differences to be considered very different from each other. They both acknowledge their similarities in The Mark of Athena and The House of Hades, and even act somewhat similar whenever they both say that they feel that they are failing since they aren't used to being among demigods of equal stature.

Cut the last one because it mentions they have differences. The rest can stay due to it being self-aware on every single character reference which implies it was on purpose.

The first one: No. The only information in the example as it's written is that Piper's father did the same thing as —-who? — not that one is a unambiguous copy of the other. In fact it doesn't even identify who the Expy is and who they're supposed to be an Expy of.

On the second one, I'd say No. An Expy is "an unambiguous and deliberate copy of another, older character.". These two are in the same work. They may be very similar, but one is not "an older character" (this isn't about age in the story, it's about how long the character has been around.

Third one is a definite no. It even says it's not an example.

"Characters are self-aware of the similarities" does point to the similarities being there on purpose, but are Annabeth and Rayna duplicates or are they merely similar in many ways?

edited 8th Apr '17 6:31:08 AM by Madrugada

I'm glad we're finally doing an Expy cleanup.

I still think we're best off making Expy a Trivia trope and reserving it to creator-confirmed examples. It's the only real way we can be sure of unambiguous ones.

Everything else could probably be shunted off to Counterpart Comparison. Might not be the best idea to make that page a catch-all for comparing characters, but we can probably come up with something better later.