E-Cigarettes: How do we fit them in?:

Total posts: [35]
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26 Zendervai8th Mar 2014 12:55:44 PM from St. Catharines , Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Eccentric Dreamer
Well, keep in mind that a couple of the really bad elements about cigarettes are the chemicals in the filter, and the use of tar. E-cigs don't have either.
27 shimaspawn8th Mar 2014 01:14:32 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Also, as someone who has done tech theater for years, fog machine fog is frequently dyed. If you want green smoke to roll over the stage, you often use green dye. It's not that uncommon.

While it might not be designed to be inhaled, I can tell you that even working backstage, I breath in more of it in a night than a vapper would do in a week.

We also know the long term effects of breathing in all those perfumes and dyes from other sources as well. Scented candles are a huge thing.

edited 8th Mar '14 1:15:46 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
28 DeviantBraeburn8th Mar 2014 01:15:47 PM from Dysfunctional California
Wandering Jew
Everything is Possible.

But some things are more Probable than others.


29 TuefelHundenIV8th Mar 2014 10:38:19 PM from Wandering , Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchman of the Apocalypse
Likely [nja]

Maddy: You missed the points completely and drunk didn't mention it at all. First off Nicotine has been examined on its own for quite some time. That is not something new at all and that is how we know it is toxic in the first place. Nicotine is pretty well understood in general.

The original bogey men with nicotine was that nicotine is linked to cancer and Alzheimers not that it is toxic. I mentioned the untouched topic in this thread that is the issue of dosage namely from one shot disposable e-cigs which have no indicator of how much a user has smoked or a built in auto-stop mechanism to keep them from possibly accidentally poisoning themselves by over indulgence. After examining what goes into the self made batches of fluid it is also very possible for someone to mix up a strong batch of fluid and not pay enough attention and accidentally poison themselves or to spill it on themselves.

Even casual surfing of sites dealing with e-liquid point out when preparing e-liquid for personal doses in use with a vaporizer or e-cig devices that you should avoid getting nicotine on your skin.

Additional perusing of various sites points out it is toxic to most pets like cats and dogs and should be kept well away from children as smaller doses are toxic to them than in adults.

From Ares E-cig On handling nicotine safely.

Anyone who uses eCigarettes or personal vaporizers with a nicotine cartridge or nicotine infused eLiquid may be exposed to nicotine. When used properly, small amounts of nicotine are absorbed through the lungs and mouth. Accidental exposure is often through the skin on the hands. I cannot stress how important it is that you wear non porous gloves (latex or nitrile for those who are sensitive to latex) when handling eLiquid or mixing your own eLiquid. In general, nicotine levels in the final product range from 8mg/ml up to 36mg/ml. Levels higher than this are generally considered too strong for direct use. Nicotine infused propylene glycol can be purchased from some suppliers for mixing your own eLiquid. These concentrations often come in strengths of 60mg/ml or more and are highly toxic and dangerous. We strongly suggest you leave these strengths to the professionals, however if you do use them, use extra care when handling these concentrations.

The simple and scientific fact is that Nicotine is a known potent toxin it should be handled with care, caution, and responsibility.

From what I have gathered the 60mg/l concentrations are typically treated as a concentrate and diluted with suspensions and flavours to achieve desired nicotine content but are hazard to handle and care should be taken to avoid accidental poisoning of yourself or anyone who may come into contact with spilled liquid.

From Inchem/International Programme on Chemical Safety (IPCS) Potentially lethal doses of nicotine are between 30-60mg depending on individual body mass. Some of the one off products contain as much as 2-3 packs worth of nicotine depending on brand. Most of the one shots have no dosing controls or consumption indicators for self or automatic intake regulation to avoid accidental poisoning. Meaning you can suck down the entire e-cig without stopping and in doing so take in a lot of nicotine. It would be fairly easy for someone to accidentally poison themselves if they are not paying attention, intoxicated, or just being stupid.

Right off of the FDA page There are other chemicals present in at least two popular E-cig brands who have claimed to be safe at one point.

Some more details related to the FDA Tests Not only that but companies making these are already making unfounded claims or even lying about contents and have already been caught red handed in the early tests like one brand stating there was no nicotine in the fluid yet tests revealed there was nicotine in it.

More of the same plus it points out the known toxicity of nicotine and known issues with some of the e-cig/vaporizer products

The FDAs Division of Pharmaceutical Analysis analyzed the ingredients in a small sample of cartridges from two leading brands of electronic cigarettes. In one sample, the FDAs analyses detected diethylene glycol, a chemical used in antifreeze that is toxic to humans, and in several other samples, the FDA analyses detected carcinogens, including nitrosamines. These tests indicate that these products contained detectable levels of known carcinogens and toxic chemicals to which users could potentially be exposed.

From University of California San Francisco I did not like the tone of that link so I chased down the study separately. See link below.

While not as bad as traditional cigarettes E-cigs are not emission free items Some potentially hazardous materials are exhaled. There does seem to be some variance between devices and output. However the greater risk seems to be to the person inhaling the initial puff. More study needed to be certain.

As with most of the current information found with early tests more test are needed to determine how much of what is going where.

The tech is not exactly the same in E-Cig as it is in a fog machine. I already pointed out the very obvious differences. The two devices use similar technology but both their overall function and design is visibly and mechanically different. There is already plenty of variation in the various e-cig devices them selves never mind the much larger differences between the e-cigs/vaporizer devices and a fog machine. For example some are activated by the user drawing on the e-cig others have push button operation. I doubt any fog machines are suck started.note  It is at best a poor comparison that over simplifies legitimate concerns with a casual comparison.

Points in short format.

  1. This is a new product line being used to ingest a commonly used drug that is very untested and very unreglated. There is no regulation for manufacture of the devices and "vapor liquids", there is no regulated dosing limits or controls, no regulations for contents, no regulations for sales in general as with other nicotine products. Safe manufacture and safe contents is a real concern. The toxins found in testing were not declared on the products packaging.
  2. There are toxins and carcinogens present in these products which come from the various additives like dyes, flavors, perfumes, and other unlisted additives. This is further complicated by that fact that there is a large variation in the devices and liquids themselves due to a lack of regulation so they can vary from safe to possibly rather dangerous to use. Some evidence suggests there may be potential harmful exhalations from users but more testing is required to be certain. Some of the devices give off nicotine content at different rates then listed on the packages, and one brand advertised as nicotine free had nicotine in it.
  3. Some of the devices and liquids contain the potential to unintentionally poison the users, people other then the user by unintentional contact, or even pets because dogs and cats are stupid and will chew/lick/eat poisonous things. The toxin is specifically nicotine and its toxicity is well known, documented, and tested. The hazard is from directly handling liquids with a high concentration of nicotine, using poorly hand mixed custom liquids, or one shots with unregulated high nicotine content with no built in limiters or consumption indicators. Even mild poisoning can have harmful physical effects.
  4. As much as I hate to say it, but due to how laws are written these items can be sold to teens, a group that is not known for it's wise decision making skills (yes I know adults can be stupid too but teens are known to take more deliberate risks). And there is some medical evidence that young adult/teen brains are more susceptible to negative effects from nicotine then adults.Just like cigarettes they should very probably be limited those 18 and older.
  5. So far the e-cigs appear less hazardous compared to cigarettes however that doesn't mean they are not harmful to the user or bystanders. Early info so far seems to suggest just the opposite may be true.

Folks the tech is interesting but I think everyone needs to be less pie in the sky about it. The fact is, it is a potentially addictive product being peddled by people who want to make money and are already showing signs of deliberate dishonesty and misleading of consumers.

With some regulation and maturation of the tech sure it will likely become a lot safer but we aren't there yet.

Shima: Given that there is some concern that the fog from fog machines is believed to be a upper respiratory irritant and asthma irritant that doesn't necessarily help. Just like the vaporizers there are no detailed studies for sure so it could be nothing or select few people could be sensitive to it.

The distracting from the factual point is that the use of the fog machines vs an e-cig/vaporizer is quite distinctly different in that one is deliberately and directly inhaled into the mouth and lungs straight from the device the other inhaled from their environment and likely at lower concentrations by comparison to deliberate inhalation.
Drunk: Until we know more I would treat them like regular cigs for who you smoke around just in case. If it turns out to be a non-issue then fuck em they are being dicks if they keep it up after the fact.

If you want to smoke it yourself go for it. I saw lots of folks suggesting making your own liquid as it is easier to control content if you find a reliable source for the stuff needed.

edited 8th Mar '14 10:41:14 PM by TuefelHundenIV

"Who watches the watchmen?"
30 shimaspawn8th Mar 2014 11:13:22 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
I do think it would be good to have a better standardization of the liquid.

That said, there are many things that are toxic in large doses that are beneficial in small doses. Iron for example is needed for your body to make blood, but too much and you get heavy metal poisoning.

Nicotine, like many things, seems to be a matter of dosing.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
31 TuefelHundenIV8th Mar 2014 11:29:20 PM from Wandering , Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchman of the Apocalypse
Shima; Very true. The only issue with nicotine is how surprisingly toxic it is and how easily it is to accidentally poison yourself. But I do agree that if we get the liquid squared away that will likely nail the majority of the issues on the spot.
"Who watches the watchmen?"
So setting aside the problems from lack of regulation, it seems like the downpoint over a regular cigarette is that people have to mess around with a hazardous liquid to use them. Does that make them more dangerous than a regular cigarette then?
Doubtful. But 'less dangerous than cigarettes' is a pretty low bar to jump over. Several outright-banned drugs are less dangerous than tobacco cigarettes.
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
That's true, although whether drugs other than the big two are banned or not isn't always based off sound analysis.

But anyway, considering it's supposed to be a better alternative to cigarettes, I would assume that would be the bar.

edited 9th Mar '14 5:38:35 AM by CassidyTheDevil

While I would prefer it if people would not poison themselves, that isn't really the main issue for me, a non-smoker. Second-hand smoke is the reason why smoking is banned from public buildings in the UK. If e-cigs reduce the damage they do to smokers by fifty percent, then that's great, they should be encouraged (as a method of weaning smokers off their nicotine addiction). If they reduce the harm from second-hand smoke by fifty percent... then that's still not enough for me to want to allow them in buildings. I'm not willing to sacrifice my health in order to enable other peoples' disgusting habits.

When we have decent studies showing that second-hand smoke from e-cigs is harmless or only negligibly harmful, then they should not be banned by law from being inside buildings. Until that is the case, they should be subjected to the same regulation as cigarettes.

(Also, I agree wholeheartedly that drug policy — and the debate around it — is pretty fucked up. But that's a topic for another thread.)
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
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