Ambiguous Name: Shamgri La get usage counts
Deadlock Clock: 9th Apr 2014 11:59:00 PM

Total posts: [53]
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The name seems to indicate that the Shangri-La in question is fake, hence "sham", but the trope description does not include any hint of deception. Lost Horizon is cited as the Trope Namer, but in the novel and in the film Shangri-La is entirely legit.

I noticed this while editing the trope page for the 1937 film. Most of the examples, including Lost Horizon, do not seem to involve any deception that would merit the word "sham". It would seem that a rename to simply Shangri-La is appropriate.
2 StarSword2nd Mar 2014 12:54:50 AM from somewhere in deep space , Relationship Status: In denial
SF-81A Black Knight
Based on Shamgri La Discussion, you're not alone in thinking that.
Seems clear to me, the "sham" part means that the representation of Shangri-La is fake, not that it itself is. I don't feel right about giving it such a generic name as what it is, the amount of false inbounds wouldn't help.
4 SeptimusHeap2nd Mar 2014 01:03:41 AM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
Another Wizard boy
The problem is that Shangri-La already refers to a fictional location, akin to Atlantis. So what does the "sham" do? Nothing.
Could just call it "Shangri-La" then if it's a fictitious locale, just it's a bit flat for a name.
How is "Shangri-La" generic? It's the Trope Namer.

Other suggestions for names?
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
I agree that this is misleading and needs changing. (It doesn't help that I first came across it on a page for a work, TaleSpin, that did in fact have a sham Shangri-La.)

Just changing it to Shangri-La works for me.
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
[up]If there are enough examples out there for an actual "Shamgri-La" trope—presumably, a supposed Utopia that in fact is something deceptive and sinister—that trope could be created under the name Shamgri-La, but that would be a project for YKTTW.
9 Madrugada2nd Mar 2014 12:19:06 PM , Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
I agree that the name is misleading. Like the others here have said, I read the name and assumed that it was a false Shangri-la. I suspect it was named Shamgri-La to avoid colliding with the work the name came from — one easy way to use the correct term and stall avoid the collision is to make it "The Shangri-La"
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
[up]The Shangri-La, I like that.
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
[up][up]The work is called Lost Horizon, though.

Still, The Shangri-La does sound better, showing that it's about the Shangri-La archetype, whether or not it actually uses that name.

[up][up][up]That would probably fall under Crapsaccharine World or Town with a Dark Secret, unless there are enough examples for it to qualify as a subtrope.

edited 2nd Mar '14 1:26:34 PM by DoktorvonEurotrash

It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
I wonder if it wasn't a case of accidental misspelling when the trope was first launched. "m" and "n" are adjacent, and similar enough if you just glance at the URL.
[up]So, Hanlon's Razor then? Sounds reasonable, actually...
14 Madrugada2nd Mar 2014 06:54:47 PM , Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Nope, it appears it was deliberate... From the archived discussion page:

Arbane: I thought it was usually spelled "Shangri-La"?
Evil Midnight Lurker: I have never in my life seen it spelled with an M. What's the deal here?
Ninjacrat: It's a pun. 'Sham'. 'Shangri-la'. Geddit? See the other titles in Hollywood Atlas.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
NVM

edited 3rd Mar '14 5:41:40 AM by tryrar

Could we just... not have Death anymore?
From that context it seems a shoehorned pun that was used to make it a pun, just to make it a pun.
17 StarSword3rd Mar 2014 11:05:23 AM from somewhere in deep space , Relationship Status: In denial
SF-81A Black Knight
[up]My thoughts exactly. It fails the Clear, Concise, Witty test because it's unclear and the pun doesn't say anything witty about the trope.

Move to split between Shangri-La or The Shangri-La for straight uses and Shamgri-La for "fake Shangri-La".
18 theAdeptrogue3rd Mar 2014 05:58:16 PM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
iRidescence
[up]And what aspect of Shamgri-La is not already covered by Crapsaccharine World or Town with a Dark Secret?

edited 3rd Mar '14 6:21:33 PM by theAdeptrogue

The quote from the discussion page says that the current fits the pattern established by the other Hollywood Atlas names. Should we be looking at those too, or leaving this one alone?
20 SeptimusHeap4th Mar 2014 02:03:46 AM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
Another Wizard boy
Nah. These pages frequently cover Hollywood versions of real places; this one is about a purely fictional place.
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
[up]Agreed.
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
Then maybe this trope should be redefined to fit the rest of the Hollywood Atlas list (i.e. false Shangri-La). If the current description has enough detail that it's indisputable whether a setting is "supposed" to be a Shangri-La or not, we could make a new trope for the current definition.
23 Madrugada5th Mar 2014 07:11:16 AM , Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Hollywood Atlas settings aren't all "false". Some of them are inaccurate to Real Life because they're oversimplified, but they aren't all false.

Additionally, most of the other Hollywood Atlas names aren't puns, and aren't misleading, so "It follows the format of many of those names" is just not true.

edited 5th Mar '14 7:12:31 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Hollywood Atlas is inaccurate descriptions of real places, except for Atlantis, and not that I look at it I wonder how Atlantis got on there.
25 Willbyr6th Apr 2014 06:30:22 AM from North Little Rock, AR , Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Clock is set.

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