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Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#1: Feb 12th 2014 at 10:42:50 PM

Okay, so the first attempt at starting a discussion on this series kind of atrophied, hoping attempt number two will be more successful.

edited 12th Feb '14 10:43:49 PM by Lunacorva

Captaindavidblake Since: Feb, 2014
#2: Feb 17th 2014 at 4:02:45 PM

I think we should start by stating our stance in the universe and we thought about this brilliant piece of fanfiction.

I myself was never a fan of Digimon and went to TF through TV Tropes, as the synopsis posted in the repective page semed absolutelly badass. And boy I was not mistaken. The story starts simple but evolves greatly (as well as the author's capabilities) and by the end it is absolutelly epic. I do enjoy greatly the depiction of the characters and the emotional rollercoaster they indulge in. Furthermore there are genuine twists down there, and I also liked that.

As I've said I wasn't a fan of the show, and although I did knew what Digimon was about (I'm always lurking around this site after all) this fanfiction might very well be my true entry into the fandom. I bring this foward because it might affect the way I see the characters and what I see as being brilliant depictions might not be so to someone who followed the show. On the other hand this is the greatest thing about great fanfiction: bringing new people to existing fandoms.

On another note, I found the Abrahamic references intriguing but honestly felt like it sometimes seemed disconected from the whole Digimon thing, hammered in and not organically inserted. It's still cool, don't get me wrong, but in one of two occasions I did cringe and thought some details could be more developed or put aside entirelly. Then again, maybe Gospel will solve this issues (still starting it, time has not being much latelly).

Anyhow, more opinions?

edited 17th Feb '14 4:07:01 PM by Captaindavidblake

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3: Feb 17th 2014 at 4:39:11 PM

Well I'll just say this right now, Tamers Forever is not only my favourite fan fic, but my favourite work of fiction I have ever read. Nothing else has gotten me so emotionally invested in the story and characters.

While I can understand your stance on the Abrahamic references, I really liked it. I felt it added a great sense of scale and scope to the story and contributed to the epic feel.

By the way, I was thinking about the fic's themes the other day, and came to the hypothesis that the story is something of a Subversion of The Hero's Journey

Captaindavidblake Since: Feb, 2014
#4: Feb 17th 2014 at 6:13:15 PM

I see your point and I will say that I have nothing against it, nothing at all! I myself have an hard time to really tell which is my fav piece of fiction. Maybe I should try to think about it one day. But I will say that TF has amazing qualities, I myself was moved to tears here and there (and those last chapters, oh those last chapters!). It's a remarkable piece of work and I love it dearly.

But that doesn't mean that it doesn't have few problems of its own. I will skip the issues regarding the writing because it's evident that not only the author started it more as a fun comedic project, but also because his writing as improved so much that it reached professional-like levels. The rest, though, I think we can discuss, after all that's the fun part, right?

Don't get me wrong about the Abrahamic references, though. I did like it. As you say it adds scale, but sometimes the magical of the Digiworld and the magical of myth don't seem to meld all that well, and that's the issue I have. It's not story-breaking, far from it, but there were points where I got myself thinking what one thing had to do with the other. The discussion regarding the Guarden of Eden seemed one of those points for me, but I went along anyway. I will the first guy to say I'm nitpicking, but we're here to talk about the story, right?

The main issue, though, has to do with the whole discussion of the Angels, Demons and so forth. I'm still have to see how he will implement these points in Gospel, but it seems that the scale might get a tad too large, because Digimon is rich enough on its own. It semed a bit too much when it was first referenced but the fact remains that I'm still to see how it will be adressed. If worked organically enough it might actually work exceptionally.

On another note, I would like to know your thought regarding this being a subversion of the Hero's Journey. It makes something ring on my mind that tells you might be right (which only makes the story more awesome), but I would like to ask you to elaborate a little, please.

Finally, please accept all of my ideas with a grain of salt. I hope to proved wrong in some of my assumptions and as they say, each person has his/her own opinion about everything, so we might not agree in some things. Still TF is awesome. cool

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#5: Feb 17th 2014 at 7:35:37 PM

Don't worry, just because Tamers Forever is my favourite work of fiction doesn't blind me to it's flaws. And I appreciate having a second opinion. This discussion would get rather boring if it was just someone agreeing with me all the time.[lol]

Anyway, about The Hero's Journey, while re-reading the series, I noticed that the events within closely matched the progression of The Hero's Journey. The difference, is in the refusal of the return. In most examples of the hero's journey, the protagonist will ultimately choose to leave behind his old home completely, but in Takato's case, when the Higher Entity offers him the chance to do just that, Takato refuses. Presenting the message that that which is close to home, like friends, family and loved ones, is far more important than any otherworldy power.

Captaindavidblake Since: Feb, 2014
#6: Feb 21st 2014 at 7:39:31 AM

Oh, I completly agree with you. It's always interesting to see what others can add to a certain subject, as long as everyone keeps the conversation civil. :)

Regarding your opinion, I think it might actually depend on where certain aspects are.

The Threshold is quite important here. Where is it? Is the Threshold the moment where Guilmon appeared in the original show? This might mean that the adventure is simply continuing from a previous point, thus TF might be seen as another step in the descent to the Magical Real, being probably the Belly of the Beast. Is the Threshold on the moment Takato decides to go after Renamon and the others in TF? This prespective might mean that Digimon Tamers was it's own standalone adventure and thus TF is something else, making Digimon and their antics the "normal world" and the events concerning the Higher Entity and Gospel the Magical Realm. This has further implications, too.

Because we also have to pinpoint the Way Back. Is the Way Back the travel back to the Real World after the Forbidden Guarden and the Fusion? This makes a lot of sense in context as Takato brought the solution to Daemon's challenge and thus saved the world with the Cure, which brings us to your point. This means TF is supposed to be seen as it's own standalone adventure and Gospel as something else entirelly. Or we might see this situation simply as the escape from the Belly of the Beast and TF as part of a wider narrative encompassing DT, TF and Gospel. This would mean that the Way Back was never made as Takato simply escaped one of the Challenges. Furthermore as the Marriage (we actually had two, albeit thematically different - Takato/Rika and Takato/Chaos) was made during these events it might be a sign that the Adventure Cycle as it is is not finished yet. On a final note, we have to also accept that the Hero's Journey is not a dogmatic concept, as this are quite flexible, but as we're trying to analyse TF I think it would be fun to think about these issues.

I could go on a little further, but this might be enough for now. And, yes, I love Campbell's work and have read extensivelly about it. :D

edited 21st Feb '14 8:00:25 AM by Captaindavidblake

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#7: Feb 21st 2014 at 1:11:01 PM

Good point. I guess I have been considering TF as a self contained series, but I think you're right: one SHOULD take into account DT and GOSPEL in the larger narrative.

Then again, is it possible to have MULTIPLE journeys in the course of one overarching storyline?

Moving on, something I was wondering was: How were you able to understand all the references to past seasons and such if you never watched the show? Didn't you get confused at times?

Captaindavidblake Since: Feb, 2014
#8: Feb 21st 2014 at 7:09:47 PM

As I told before, the ideas behind the Monomyth aren't dogmatic and several iterations are possible under the greater theory. You can have a sub-cycle type of system where the wider normality overimposes itself over smaller notions of normality. For example take the world without Digimon under consideration. This might be seen as the standard rule, the original normality from which the hero departed after the Threshold. From here you can have several cycles, where the normality is something else, let's say, the world with Digimon in the TF series. In Gospel the normality would be the world of the Omnitamers, for example. The idea, though, is that all of this implies a restoration of the initial paradygm, or, at least, what was the normality initially. So the have an overlaying Hero's Journey, the finale would have to be a new world without Digimon in this context. Of course, I don't know what Daneel has in mind, so...

I didn't followed the show, although I did saw some loose episodes of the three first seasons (very few to be honest) and saw the movie (or what passed as one, I did loved "Our War Game", probably my favourite Digimon-related thing before TF). Other things I got familiar with through TV Tropes. I also have friends who are Digimon fans and they talked to me a lot about it. Being myself passionate about mythology I enjoyed talking about the issue and see how far I could go without having seen the show. Not wanting to brag about it, but I did made a good account of myself. Anyhow it was enough for the catch the main rules of the universe. Of course that I probably didn't even realized some of the callbacks, but as I do like to read sagas where it's implied the characters to have a complex past before the story itself, it didn't anoyed me and I actually loved it in part because of that.

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#9: Feb 21st 2014 at 8:19:31 PM

That's good. So my next topic of discussion is: What did you think of Daemon as an antagonist?

Captaindavidblake Since: Feb, 2014
#10: Feb 23rd 2014 at 8:03:33 PM

Humm, Daemon. For starters I actually thought he made a lot of sense taking in consideration the myth arc Daneel is trying to come up regarding this (Daemon - can't get more obvious than that). Again, I'm not familiar with the original character, but I do realize he's probably the most fearsome adversary for the first generation of Digimon children and a constant presence in most Digimon fanfiction.

Functionally, though, I did thought he was a little too overpowered at the start ad then too underpowered at the end. What I mean is that the way he was made to overpower all the main characters at once actualyl made him sound less interesting that he could. I was actually hoping for him to use his troops in a more coordinated manner to flank the Tamers and obtain battlefield dominance, but maybe I'm expecting too much tactical thinking for a Digimon story. The thing is that he was so powerful he actually seemed what he was, a plot ploy. Making him a little less powerfull and more mentally flexible would make him much more interesting, but, again, maybe that would have gone too much against the original character. The was he was overpowered by Takato in the end in a wya seemed a little too quick taking into account the mentioned buildup. I would have liked to see a more drawn-out and complex battle. On the other hand it would probably be dragging as too much as we already knew the end to that battle and the story had been combat-heavy enough to allow for a quicker and less paced fight. So although I would have prefered a more complex fight, from a technical standpoint I understand why it was protrayed like that. Also Terriermon was awesome in that scene and the only thing I would have liked was to see more of that. :)

Which brings me to a question I've always wanted to make to a Digimon fan: why don't people give nicknames to the Digimon? I mean, could you imagine if all humans were named Human? That question always bugged me.

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#11: Feb 24th 2014 at 12:25:10 AM

Personally I actually LIKED Daemon's overpoweredness. I felt it added a lot of tension to the story. The idea that the characters could very well be killed and likely WOULD be killed. And credit where credit is due, it was never completely one sided, the heroes did get some decent hits in.

And to answer your question: I have absolutely no idea.

Captaindavidblake Since: Feb, 2014
#12: Feb 24th 2014 at 11:43:20 AM

Oh, I'll agree with you in there. The tension he provided was actually a great plus to the story. I atucally thought some characetrs had been killed until the final paragraphs, so something was done well in there. I was just saying that if it was me I would make his feats more tactical rather than simple overpower. But as you've realized I write war stories and TF it's not my story to tell. On the other hand, we do need to keep the discussion flowing, right? [lol]

Regarding the final point, it's rather odd, isn't it? I've tried to write a Digimon/Pokemon fanfic once and I gave nicknames to most of the Digimon chacaters, at least those who had any importance to the plot.

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#13: Feb 24th 2014 at 1:40:48 PM

I'm afraid I haven't heard the Halo Reach OST. Which tracks do you think go with which scenes?

Captaindavidblake Since: Feb, 2014
#14: Feb 25th 2014 at 1:10:44 PM

It's an amazing OST. Some even say that the best thing in the Halo game series is the OST. Anyhow, Reach has a very Middle-Eastern touch that to me make it fit somehow in TF. To me the most fitting tracks and the ones I prefered to listen to when reading were, most probably, ONI Sword Base and Long Night of Solace, although, as I've said, I find the whole OST to be rather fitting.

And you, any music you thought to come along nicely with this series? smile

edited 25th Feb '14 1:22:23 PM by Captaindavidblake

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#15: Feb 25th 2014 at 1:43:59 PM

Several actually. It's been a desire of mine to see an Audio Adaptation for TF like the Pony POV series has.

Anyway, fitting songs:

edited 25th Feb '14 1:44:14 PM by Lunacorva

Captaindavidblake Since: Feb, 2014
#16: Feb 25th 2014 at 2:09:31 PM

Red vs Blue! cool

Good choices all around! As you might have noticed mine are a little more gloomy. I didn't know that Pony POV had an audio adaptation. It's not something I'm interested in, though (ponies).

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#17: Feb 26th 2014 at 3:01:35 AM

BTW, for some reason I always imagine TF!Piedmon being voice by Dameon Clarke

Captaindavidblake Since: Feb, 2014
#18: Mar 2nd 2014 at 7:15:52 AM

That sounds just perfect. I kind of questioned who could be voiced by Tim Curry. The guy's truly an awesome actor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u42842uxwUo&feature=player_detailpage#t=800

Maybe one of the new adversaries in Gospel. :)

edited 2nd Mar '14 7:16:18 AM by Captaindavidblake

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#19: Mar 3rd 2014 at 1:43:08 AM

The voice does seem to fit Ghoulmon, but that role is too minor for a big name like Tim Curry

maxwellelvis Mad Scientist Wannabe from undisclosed location Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: In my bunk
Mad Scientist Wannabe
#20: Mar 3rd 2014 at 8:15:57 AM

[up]Trust me, he's not as big a name as you think he is. The man did Super Human Samurai Syber Squad. The man did Turbocharged Thunderbirds. He's played equally small roles on Regular Show.

Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great
Captaindavidblake Since: Feb, 2014
#21: Mar 5th 2014 at 5:17:25 PM

Hi Maxwellevis!

I see your point. Although he is quite awesome. I think he would actually fit rather well for some kind of powerful characetr, even one who doesn't appears much. I would say it would be an awesome choice for the Higher Entity, although i guess most of us imagine it voiced by Morgan Freeman anyhow. evil grin

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#22: Mar 6th 2014 at 3:46:09 AM

[up] Not really. Morgan Freeman is great for playing a wise and benevolent God. Not the Straw Nihilist Horrible Judge of Character that The Higher Entity was shown to be.

BTW, do either of you two know any decent artists?

Captaindavidblake Since: Feb, 2014
#23: Mar 6th 2014 at 6:14:57 AM

So, Tim Curry it is for the Higher Entity! I can have him as God, no problems. grin

Also, What kind of artists are you thinking about?

edited 6th Mar '14 6:15:09 AM by Captaindavidblake

Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#24: Mar 6th 2014 at 7:32:40 AM

Any really, I just had this idea for a cover image for TF

Captaindavidblake Since: Feb, 2014
#25: Mar 6th 2014 at 8:57:41 AM

It depends. I know several good ones, but it will depened if you're interested in asking for a commission 8paid) or a request (non-paid). It's very hard to get someone to do the later, though, because people have to pay their bills. But I can point you to several good people who can make awesome work.


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