Ambiguous Name: Ravens And Crows

This page is supposed to be about ravens and crows being sinister or villainous, but the description also seems to be cramming in the idea of trickster crows, which could perhaps be split off into a separate trope. Also, the name implies that this is simply "Certain types of birds appear somewhere in this story."

I think that at minimum we need a rename and example cleanup, but we might also want to consider if this page can be split up into more specific tropes.

For example, we have several paragraphs (over kill?) about scary crows, but it then goes on to say "Cartoon crows are always played for humor and aren't the slightest bit scary, though they can certainly be annoying to the farmers (and the occasional living scarecrow). They tend to be Screwy Squirrel tricksters."

Also, more than a few example have "Ravens associated with Odin or a Shout-Out thereto", which depending on the context is not always sinister.

The religion folder on the mainpage is a good example of how this trope is being used as "These birds show up in any context whatsoever."

None of those really stand out to me as "Scary Crows". Even them being unclean is a "so what" kind of thing because so many things are under Jewish dietary laws. Oysters are unclean but aren't generally associated with evil, death etc.

The Real Life folder is mostly random factoids about the birds.

The Baltimore Ravens in the Sports section by be a Shout-Out to Poe, but they generally aren't regarded as sinister or evil.

edited 4th Feb '14 1:00:25 PM by Catbert

It's got 524 wicks and 247 inbounds, for the record. And yeah, the name sounds very chairsy. Not like a trope at all.

"Trickster" seems close enough for government work to "sinister" or "villainous". No opinion re: the name.

Not if the "trickster" aspect is played for laughs though, unless it's a black comedy (which, looking at the description is not the case).

I think a split and a wick clean-up would be good

It does look like this needs a split; I'd suggest Corvids Are Creepy and Corvids Are Clever as the two main thrusts here. (We could also use "crows" in place of "corvids" if the latter isn't accessible enough, with a note that ravens, rooks, jackdaws, and "black-feathered birds that eat carrion" in general.)

I think you have the right idea. What you propose would work.

Creepy Crows and Clever Crows might be a bit more concise for the names though.

Agree this needs a split. We could possibly divide the wick clean-up.

Agreed all around.

Given my knowledge of crows and associated symbolism, I would agree that "wise/clever" and "sinister/evil" are both concepts, and should both merit a page.

I think there's a fundamental distinction between the two portrayals of crows. Of course, nothing says a single instance can't be both at the same time.

Well, tropes frequently overlap, but that doesn't mean they should be lumped together for that reason alone.

Crowner: [1]

I didn't think it was possible to put two options on a single prop crowner.

edited 3rd Mar '14 2:53:27 PM by StarSword

Neither did I, and I have no idea how it happened.

wow, that got a consensus quickly, though we should wait for some more votes...

Will post more comprehensive thoughts later, but for now I agree with the split into "sinister/evil" and "wise/clever"; also think "sinister/evil" can be further split into "creepy" and "trickster."

It seems to me that the "trickster" crow is what you get from a crow that falls into both categories.

Calling for the split.

So for the new tropes....

• Clever Crows: Crows/Ravens as smart, wise, trickster

• Creepy Crows: Crows/Ravens as sinister, menacing, evil, ominous, etc.

Anyone have any alternate suggestions?

Should it be "Crows" or "Corvids"?

Fair enough.

edited 19th Mar '14 6:46:09 AM by Willbyr

I prefer "crows" since it's a more familiar name, and chalk up examples of other corvids as a part of Tropes Are Flexible

edited 19th Mar '14 6:23:24 AM by theAdeptRogue

I would use Raven variations on the basic name as redirects that are as acceptable as the Crow variation.

I really wanted to use Craven Raven for a trope name but I looked up "craven" and it turned out it really meant cowardly instead of evil as I was thinking it did.

OK, here are some subtopics of good, evil, and both good and evil. (Sorry to take so long; life's been busy lately.)

Evil: associated with death (possibly because it feeds on carrion) and war; also familiars of witches.

Good: associated with intelligence, watchfulness/role as a sentinel, and faithful love (crows are monogamous); also companions of gods.

Both: associated with omens (already covered in Magpies as Portents) and other magical powers; also tricksters.

What's the next step?

Writing up sandboxes or YKTTWs on the new tropes.

I might have time to start a YKTTW for Creepy Crows later today, but I'd prefer not to have to do them all myself. Haven't had a lot of time for TV Tropes lately.