TV Tropes Org

Forums

Deadlock Clock: 26th Apr '14 11:59 PM
search forum titles
google site search
Total posts: [112]
1
 2  3  4 5

Misused (titles crowner 9/24/14): Asshole Victim get usage counts

Asshole Victim is supposed to be about the victims of a murder mystery deserving their fates. It's used as any victim of any crime in any setting deserving their fate.

I figure we've got two options: Rename to be more clear, or redefine to match misuse. I'm much in favor of the latter due to the massive wicks and inbounds, but I'm not completely certain that trope isn't covered by Kick the Son of a Bitch and similar tropes.
 2 Septimus Heap, Wed, 22nd Jan '14 8:24:38 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I do not see a legitimate reason for the restriction. Ditch it with reckless abandon.

 3 Madrugada, Wed, 22nd Jan '14 8:29:48 AM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
I agree with ditching the restriction to murder victims. Kick the Son of a Bitch is for when a Kick the Dog fails to be effective because the victim is not harmless or helpless. An Asshole Victim could be a case of blackmailing a blackmailer, running a scam on a crook (like The Sting) or otherwise making the victim of a crime so unlikeable that the sympathies of the audience remain with the person who did it.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
 4 the Adept Rogue, Wed, 22nd Jan '14 8:52:52 AM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
An Asshole Victim could be a case of blackmailing a blackmailer, running a scam on a crook (like The Sting) or otherwise making the victim of a crime so unlikeable that the sympathies of the audience remain with the person who did it.

So, it would be related to Karmic Thief then?

edited 22nd Jan '14 8:53:31 AM by theAdeptRogue

Is there even need for a crowner here, or can we just go straight to sandboxing a new description?
 6 Madrugada, Wed, 22nd Jan '14 11:19:24 AM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Related to? I'd say Yes. A Karmic Thief would be the person who steals from the Asshole Victim It should be the supertrope to "The victim is unsympathetic so that the audience feels no qualms about what happened to them." That may be a Karmic action (like a thief being stolen from) or not (A general all-around jackhole being the murder victim, even if he wasn't a killer himself.)

edited 22nd Jan '14 11:20:55 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
 7 Another Duck, Wed, 22nd Jan '14 2:16:14 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
Well, as long as the purpose of it is to make the perpetrator more sympathetic just because we don't care about the victim as much as we would've if it wasn't an asshole.

I do think it's important that even if it's not a murder, it's still a clear-cut crime.
Check out my fanfiction!
 8 Madrugada, Wed, 22nd Jan '14 3:36:14 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Oh, yes, that needs to stay — clearly the victim of a crime, not just "something not nice happened to them".
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
There is a third option: Trope Transplant.

Asshole Murder Victim for the current definition, and Asshole Victim for the supertrope: "unsympathetic victim of a crime".

edited 22nd Jan '14 6:31:16 PM by crazysamaritan

Still new. Still learning. Asking questions and making mistakes.
The trope isn't supposed to be Asshole Murder Victim—it's Asshole Murder Mystery Victim, which just feels more specific than necessary.

edited 22nd Jan '14 7:58:51 PM by Discar

Bump. Crowner time, or are we all agreed to expand the definition?
I dunno... The Asshole Murder Victim serves a particular purpose: to have a ready made cast of suspects for the crime. It's quite a different purpose than having an Asshole Victim of Any Crime in general.

 13 Septimus Heap, Sun, 26th Jan '14 11:21:53 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I am not sure how that would not apply to other crimes as well, to be honest.

Because once you get out of mysteries, the context becomes totally different. You don't need suspects in Leverage, for example, but them being assholes is the entire point.

 15 Madrugada, Mon, 27th Jan '14 5:29:10 AM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Valid point. Mystery Asshole Victim, then?
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
 16 Septimus Heap, Mon, 27th Jan '14 5:34:25 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Do all mysteries require murder?

I agree that we need a subtrope for victems of crimes being assholes in order to maximize the number of people that would have a motive to do unpleasant things to them. This has a very distinct storytelling purpose from, say, a corporate executive being depicted as as asshole to make us root for the Karmic Thief protagonists that wants to rob from him.

I also think that there is a reason for limiting this to murder, attempted murder and other violent crimes against the person.

For one thing, speaking as a reader of lots and lots of mysteries, that generally is the most common crime that these stories are about.

Secondly, when the victim being an asshole is most in these stories is used as a motivation (in real life and in fiction) for violent crimes against the person intended for revenge.

Both in real life and in Detective Fiction, people generally don't steal from people, embezzle their money, or shoplift from their stores because they dislike the person. They do it for greed.

EDIT PS

Well, as long as the purpose of it is to make the perpetrator more sympathetic

In the context of murder mysteries, the main point really isn't the make the perpetrator sympathetic. That may be a part of it in some murder mysteries, but in murder mysteries the audience is being asked for root for the detective that wants to catch the bad guy. With rare exception, we generally aren't being asked to root for the murderer in these stories. At most, the author is using the fact that the murder victim is an asshole and the perp is otherwise likeable as a way or making the human relationships and emotions involved more complex and less "Black and White Morality". Also, as a way of making the situation more poignant and tragic when the perpetrator is finally caught and confess their reasons for the crime. But all the same, at the end of the day, the audience wants the detective to catch the criminal.

As I say above, that is entirely different from being asked to root for the Loveable Rogue protagonist stealing from the corrupt politician or brutal mafia dons, to the point of rooting against the police that want to catch them.

edited 27th Jan '14 5:53:51 AM by Catbert

So i believe the proposal is a split:
  • Mystery Asshole Victim - The murder victim is an asshole in order to maximize the number of people that would have a motive.
  • Asshole Victim - Victim of a crime who is portrayed as unsympathetic, possibly deserving of the crime. Supertrope to MAV. Related to Loveable Rogue and the other sympathetic criminal types.
Still new. Still learning. Asking questions and making mistakes.
 19 Another Duck, Mon, 27th Jan '14 9:53:43 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
[up][up]"Being asked to root for" and "being made more sympathetic" are two entirely different things.
Check out my fanfiction!
 20 the Adeptrogue, Wed, 29th Jan '14 9:25:07 PM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
By the way, do we have a separate trope for "Victims of any other circumstances (e.g. accidents, natural disaster, etc) who are so much of a Jerk Ass that people are not expected to sympathize with their plights"? Because I often see this trope misused as such as well (also, this needs to establish a clearer distinction between this trope and Pay Evil unto Evil).

No, reading the definition of Jerk Ass, that's part of the trope.
  • it's hard to feel sorry for them when something bad does happen to them, and it is often seen as comeuppance.
  • In films, they often get their comeuppance in the end, which will be applauded by the audience.

When the Jerk Ass avoids any negative consequences, that's a Karma Houdini.
Still new. Still learning. Asking questions and making mistakes.
 22 Larkmarn, Sat, 8th Feb '14 2:45:44 PM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Random comment, I just pulled this from Drag Me to Hell

The amount of squarepegging involved to put that there is hilarious.

 23 guyy, Tue, 11th Feb '14 1:15:47 AM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Based on the first sentence of the description:

When an author has a corpse-shaped hole in the story, and decides to fill it with a character the audience won't mourn.

it looks to me like it's supposed to be when a very minor or even posthumous character is introduced entirely because the plot requires a death, and the author makes the doomed character an asshole so we won't care too much that they died.

That isn't restricted to murder mysteries. It's convenient for when you want the hero to kill someone needlessly but you don't want them seem evil for doing it, among other things. But a lot of the examples are long-running characters who eventually died, or even plain old villains, which clearly doesn't fit unless this is a list of villains who die (there are kind of a lot of those). Some cleanup may be needed no matter what we do.

Yes, but the description then goes on to say that one of the reasons for the trope in the context of murder mysteries is to create a wide range of potential suspects, which is rather different from the things you mentions.

 25 Septimus Heap, Tue, 11th Feb '14 2:58:36 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
The biggest issues I see with the split is the work required, plus I am not sure to which degree these trope concepts don't overlap (or to which degree we can stop people from using the one for the other, for that matter).

Alternative Titles: Asshole Victim
24th Sep '14 12:13:19 PM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
Total posts: 112
1
 2  3  4 5


TV Tropes by TV Tropes Foundation, LLC is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be available from thestaff@tvtropes.org.
Privacy Policy