Is Rock Really DEAD?!/Opinions are Opinions...

First off, I've creeped a lot of music forum posts on this site, and all I can say is music discussions (or any other discussion involving one's taste in art or media) are kinda... well, inherently pointless, due to the subjective nature of taste. It always comes down to people's personal opinions- and inevitably a few of those with very strong/passionate opinions treat theirs as objective fact and rub people who disagree the wrong way. And thus are flame wars started... [wink]

That said, there's nothing really wrong with having discussions on this stuff, as long as we all acknowledge that our opinions are indeed just that- opinions. Not any kind of objective fact. Treating subjective opinions like objective fact is something that's always bugged me about professional reviewers and critics, as well as about fandoms and hatedoms. Who can really say whether Kraftwerk, Pink Floyd, or The Beastie Boys is better? And the the truth is, we're all entitled to our tastes- and no one's really "right" or 'wrong", per se...

I usually avoid these kinda discussions online for precisely this reason. Having said that, I feel I should throw in my two cents on a topic I've seen many variations of being discussed: basically, is Rock music dead?!

It's my opinion that no genre really ever dies (or, alternately, every genre is dead and kinda always has been... Or genre's another arbitrary thing anyways... Whatever). [tongue] Rock Music doesn't need to be reborn or anything like that. It's not like all modern Rock music is bad by any means, nor is all the old stuff great. Both the "Year Zero" attitude (the idea that nothing made before a certain date is good, no relation to the Nine Inch Nails album) and the Retro/Classic Rock thing I've encountered so much of (which holds the opposite to be true, though the cut-off date varies a lot) are limiting in their own ways.

(Note that, once again, I must note that this is all YMMV, since to do otherwise after my opening rant would be hypocritical. There will be time for hypocrisy later, but not now... [wink])

What Rock music really needs isn't bands/artists making good music- there's a lot of that still (to be fair, there's also a lot that sucks, though that, like all else, is YMMV). What it needs is the equivalent of the 70s Punk Rock or Grunge revolution- something that actually manages to not only shake up Rock music, but effect the mainstream as well. Rock music's not really mainstream anymore...

Though ultimately, IMHO quality's not measured by chart placement, sales or popularity. It all depends on what you think is good. It's all subjective. Except Justin Bieber. He sucks ass... [wink]

Long ass rant, I know. Also, it's kinda paraphrased from another post I made. I figure the topic that one's in is pretty much dead, so this'll probly elicit more response if I post it as a new topic...

If at first ya don't succeed, try a bit more, then give up or cheat... ;) -Myself Nothing can stop me now! -Piggy by Nine Inch Nails

As far as I'm concerned, rock was originally dance music, and should probably go down that route again in order to be revitalized. I don't mean adding electronic beats to appeal to the modern pop scene, I mean legitimate rhythmic music, with guitar, bass, and drums. And bring back the tenor sax, just for kicks.

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."

It's only "dead" if you don't like the current sounds. Same with any other genre.

Only Death Is Real

Since when do people think rock is dead? It's been one of the biggest genres of music in the past century.

Well, if you wanna take a nihilist point of view on it, discussions about anything are inherently pointless since in the end, none of it matters because we'll all be dead and buried anyway.

There are still plenty of bands that do that. It's just most of them you'll find in bars. And, really, arguably, plenty of more known bands do that anyway (minus the tenor sax, but hey, styles change). If you don't make your music catchy (arguably more or less the same concept as "danceable"), it's not likely to sell.

edited 20th Jan '14 9:37:19 PM by Odd1

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Huh, nice to see there's actually a discussion going on here. Sometimes these things go up and just sit there.

Hah, that's... well, kinda true. Though my views are not so much nihilist as existentialist. I'm not saying criticism is all invalid, exactly, it's just necessary to recognize that everyone's opinion is, well, just an opinion. Basically, I'm tired of critics and fanboys and everybody else acting like their opinion is fact. It's not, it's an opinion. That was a repetitive paragraph...

This. Just this. I couldn't agree more.

There are indeed still bands making this kind of music, and since when was adding electronic beats to Rock music a bad thing? There are many ways to make music danceable, after all. Techno is danceable. So is Ska. So is Funk. And Big Band. And so is Rockabilly... But it's true, Tenor Sax is a good thing. I kinda miss Tenor Sax...

If at first ya don't succeed, try a bit more, then give up or cheat... ;) -Myself Nothing can stop me now! -Piggy by Nine Inch Nails

I don't think I've really seen that happening here very much. I don't think that disclaimer is warranted.

I mean sometimes I'll say something like "This song is terrible" and not punctuate it with "in my opinion" but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge it's just my opinion. As long as nobody else is harassing someone for taste, then I don't see any problem.

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian

Odd1 above: Catchy doesn't equal danceable.

Good dance music involves keeping up the tempo throughout the song. You can't start out fast and then slow down in the middle, likewise you can't switch from 3/4 to 4/4 time.

I said adding electronic beats just seems like trying to jump onto the next cultural trend. Just make music with natural rhythm.

edited 21st Jan '14 12:06:54 PM by Aldo930

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."

Fair enough. It all kinda depends on how you say it though. And who you say it to. Y'know what, it's complicated. Next time anyone says anything about something being good, bad or mediocre, I'll just tack on "in my opinion" in my head. Should help. In fact, I'll do that from now on...

If they're obnoxious about it, that's when I'll bug 'em about the subjectivity stuff. Most of the people I have discussions about this stuff IRL with will either be shut up by that or they'll start debating philosophy with me... And I LIKE debating philosophy, so I win either way.

edited 21st Jan '14 1:17:11 PM by sharkcrap11

If at first ya don't succeed, try a bit more, then give up or cheat... ;) -Myself Nothing can stop me now! -Piggy by Nine Inch Nails

You do know that there are many kinds of electronic beats that do not appeal to the modern pop scene, right?

It's not about being made with natural or digital rhythm. It's about making stuff with quality.

Now, about the Rock thing.

It suffers from two problems: the weight of the past (can we ever top the Punk or Grunge scenes? Why isn't there a scene capable of shaking up stuff?) and the orthodoxy of its practices and especially the fans (some Rock music fans are too elitist).

In order to avoid the weight of the past, they must not focus on said past. You can learn from it, but you can't repeat it. It's best to try something different. And to do that, the orthodoxy needs to go away a bit. People can add electronic beats (in fact, rock music with electronic beats exist since the days of Synth Pop, Hip-Hop and the Madchester/Indie Dance genres/sub-genres), learn with different sorts of music spread throughout the world, or not trap themselves in the usual set-up of guitars, bass, drums.

In other words, get unorthodox. Learn with stuff you don't usually listen to.

This decade is the first decade without any popular rock songs.

Fun fact: the theremin was invented in the 1920s, and it wasn't even the first synthesizer. The electric guitar was invented in the 1930s.

I didn't write any of that.

Let's not forget Industrial/EBM and Alternative Dance, which are both pretty old genres themselves (late 70s for the first, early 80s for the latter). But I agree completely that electronic beats or the lack thereof has nothing to do with quality. Quality being a matter of opinion, of course.

I both agree and disagree on the orthodoxy thing. There are bands who can make retro stuff sound fresh (usually by bringing attitude, energy, songwriting or instrumental skill to an old genre) and those who just suck at it/are imitators of past glories. And there are bands who come up with new hybrids and make it work and those who try and just kinda... fail.

If by this decade you mean the 2010s, then it's kinda too early to say anything for sure, but I can name a few that've been very big (and I cast no judgement either way on the quality thereof): Somebody That I Used To Know by Gotye (admittedly kinda Poppy, but still kinda counts), We Are Young by Fun., Gold On the Ceiling and Lonely Boy by The Black Keys (maybe not mainstream hits, but I hear 'em all the effing time on Modern Rock stations, though I usually stay away from radio of any kind)... There are no doubt more, but those stick out to me the most...

edited 21st Jan '14 7:13:59 PM by sharkcrap11

If at first ya don't succeed, try a bit more, then give up or cheat... ;) -Myself Nothing can stop me now! -Piggy by Nine Inch Nails

Very fun fact. I've actually heard that. Theremins rule... That's one instrument that needs to come back sometime. The theremin was also invented by Leon Theremin, who also invented the Rythmicon (aka the world's first drum machine- no joke!) and a whole bunch of espionage equipment. Yes.

If at first ya don't succeed, try a bit more, then give up or cheat... ;) -Myself Nothing can stop me now! -Piggy by Nine Inch Nails

I'd call "Gold on the Ceiling" a pretty mainstream hit as far as I've seen.

Let's not forget a few other fun. songs that became hits, "Some Nights" and "Carry On". And hell, Paramore has still been having hits too—pop punk is still rock.

Insert witty 'n clever quip here.

Is it? Well, there we go then- Rock still charts/lives/whatever else...

fun. are a pretty big deal right now. Not that I mind, I actually kinda like 'em. Better than Justin Bieber or One Direction, anyways. As far as I'm concerned...

Indeed it is, indeed it is. Hell, some Pop Punk bands are even pretty good, IMNSHO...

If at first ya don't succeed, try a bit more, then give up or cheat... ;) -Myself Nothing can stop me now! -Piggy by Nine Inch Nails

I think that's a big factor in why a lot of otherwise pretty cool people claim that "rock is dead": the very specific sub-secondary-spinoff genre of rock that they adore isn't getting a lot of attention and that's what they think justifies them crying out to the world that rock music is over. Of course, since rock music covers a much broader area of music than that teeny tiny little bit that they aren't seeing as much of lately, their cries are untrue overall.

Hey, I'll be the first to admit that I actually really like Green Day (even if I don't quite think their recent output is in total as good as their earlier output).

<snipped to be posted on its own>

edited 21st Jan '14 7:42:26 PM by Odd1

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Rock is only dead if you have an extremely narrow definition of the word, and are ignoring any other style than heavy rock.

The last hurrah? Nah, I'd do it again.

(and, in a sense, ) Makes sense to me. Rock music is one of the broadest genres there is, from the most light and twee of Belle and Sebastian to the most HXCX WE WILL EAT YOUR FACE OFF of Cannibal Corpse. (Yes, I consider metal to be rock music. I see no reason why it shouldn't be classified as such.)

edited 21st Jan '14 7:43:00 PM by Odd1

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I think it's best to just do it this way: even if your opinion isn't objectively the best, you can still make it the loudest by making sure the artists you like are supported (go out to see shows, legally purchase their songs, etc.)

For my part, most of my favorites that could be called "new" (i.e, within 10 years of their formation) are Halestorm, Art of Dying, The Rival Sons, and fun.

Most music devotees would call AOD banal or boring, Halestorm tend to ride off of Lzzy's vocal ability (I think their drummer deserves the praise he gets), the sons are basically a classic rock retread-band. I suppose that makes fun. the most "legit" of the lot (I'd say they're just as electronic as they are rock).

I would've called Alter Bridge my favorite "new" band, but they'll be turning 10 this year, they're essentially a super-group (coming off the success of Creed instead of building up their fame organically), and their last two albums felt really safe to me. I hear both albums getting praised all the time, but I just can't see it (Black Bird is their real masterpiece in my mind).

edited 21st Jan '14 7:51:19 PM by Alucard

That's a much better way to make one's opinion not only known but relevant, I concur. Beats out loudly being butthurt whenever someone badmouths Favorite Band X, anyways...

Those are all decent-ish bands, can't really fault any of 'em. Once again, my opinion.

Metal pretty much is Rock, IMHO. As is Punk. And Indie/Alternative (in fact, Indie's basically an extension of Alternative, to the point where I don't really get why the name change happened... is Grunge really that embarrassing to the hipster crowd?). And I like all of Green Day's records, though the new ones aren't quite as good. But they're not the horrible sellouts some claim them to be...

Yep, that pretty much sums up the reason for the whole "Rock is Dead" angle from a lotta folks. Now that I think about it...

If at first ya don't succeed, try a bit more, then give up or cheat... ;) -Myself Nothing can stop me now! -Piggy by Nine Inch Nails

Oh, don't get me wrong, I do think they're horrible sellouts, but that doesn't mean I can't like their music

Insert witty 'n clever quip here.

Hehehe, that one was good. I dunno, does diversifying your sound somewhat *which they started doing on Nimrod and Warning- American Idiot was actually a half-step back from that one diversity-wise, though there were still more styles explored than on their earliest albums) really make you a sellout? Though admittedly they kinda went all Loudness War on everyone and made the whole thing a bit too slick to seem very Punk...

If at first ya don't succeed, try a bit more, then give up or cheat... ;) -Myself Nothing can stop me now! -Piggy by Nine Inch Nails

Nope, diversifying your musical style and sound is something I always welcome. Hell, Warning is one of my favorite albums of theirs. Now, Broadway musicals that try really hard (and fail) to make you think they're incredibly punk? Ooooooh yes.

(I can't hate the American Idiot show, though, if only because of how much cheesy good fun it is. This one line in it always makes me crack up: "DEAR MOM, I JUST SHOT DRUGS FOR THE FIRST TIME TODAY." Oh, and that one damn scene where Mystical Goddess of Morphine gives Soldier in Hospital Bed a Flying Acid Trip Or Something. That...probably makes more sense high.)

edited 22nd Jan '14 1:05:32 AM by Odd1

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It was a little Broadway-esque I guess, or at least Meatloaf-esque (but hey, I LIKE Meatloaf- corny as shit, but enjoyable all the same). But it's not like Punk Rock concept albums had never happened before- witness Husker Du's Zen Arcade. Now THAT'S a Punk concept album that's actually Punk...

Heh, your morphine line reminds me of a scene from Across the Universe for some reason. Which was enjoyable, even if the plot kinda sucked. The music I liked though...

If at first ya don't succeed, try a bit more, then give up or cheat... ;) -Myself Nothing can stop me now! -Piggy by Nine Inch Nails