TheHero, archetype, TheProtagonist or stock character?

Just what is The Hero anyway?

Y'see, i have this YKTTW Two-Bit Hero which hinges on this trope. the first paragraph on it makes it a point that it be clear that The Hero does not equal to The Protagonist.

and yet when people read it, they get various interpretations ranging from Supporting Protagonist (which would be the protagonists in a story where The Hero is either a Deuteragonist or a Sword of Plot Advancement kind of important Two Bit Hero) A Day in the Limelight to Lower-Deck Episode to Hero of Another Story up to Miles Gloriosus, which isn't even related.

Hero Antagonist somehow doesn't have this problem, hell just the title alone is enough to know what it is about, and yet neither Supporting Hero (orig working title) nor Two Bit Hero works in conveying the spirit of the trope. why?

am i missing something here? Am I misunderstanding the description in The Hero? or am i just having a bout of Poor Communication Kills?

The Hero is one of these old terms that have acquired a number of different uses in the course of history. That's why there are so many definitions flying around.

I think many of the hero/protagonist tropes are confused for above mentioned reasons, and the way people relate to and talk about them is even more confused.

The Hero doesn't have to be The Protagonist, but being The Protagonist just means you get most of the screentime and/or the story is told from your point of view; it has nothing to do with how important you are to the plot. And there's the rub: The Hero doesn't need to appear a lot, and they don't need to have their point of view told, but being important to the plot is absolutely essential.

Take a look at the Laconic definition of The Hero: "The main good guy." The Hero is, by definition, the most important character on the side of good. There may be a Big Good who's theoretically more important, but ultimately whether the good guys win will depend on The Hero's actions.

You talk about The Hero dying or failing and someone else having to save the day instead, but if The Hero can fail without the bad guys winning, then they're not actually The Hero. The person who saves the day in their place? That person is The Hero. And even if The Hero doesn't fail, if the people helping them are shown to be more important than they are, then those helpers are main/most important good guys, and thus The Heroes of the story.

The Hero can be a supporting character in the sense that they don't show up a lot and the story's not really about them, but if they stop being vitally important to the story (at least the good guys' side of the story) then, by definition, they're no longer The Hero.

Actually, the description of the The Protagonist trope is "The Protagonist is the principal character of a story. Usually The Hero, but not always. Beyond any and all other traits, whether they are a Villain Protagonist, The Hero, or simply an Innocent Bystander, and whatever the story's POV may be, you can generally tell who the protagonist is because the story is about them. This is present in pretty much all fiction, making it an Omnipresent Trope."

The definition in The Other Wiki is "A protagonist (from Ancient Greek πρωταγωνιστής (protagonistes), meaning "one who plays the first part, chief actor"[1]) is the main character (the central or primary personal figure) of a literary, theatrical, cinematic, or musical narrative, who enters conflict because of the antagonist. The audience is intended to most identify with the protagonist. In the theatre of Ancient Greece, three actors played every main dramatic role in a tragedy; the protagonist played the leading role whereas the deuteragonist and the tritagonist played the others."

And the definition in the wikitionary is:

" 1- The main character in a any story, such as a literary work or drama. 2- A leading person in a contest; a principal performer. 3- An advocate or champion of a cause or course of action."

Right, the main character is the protagonist, but it is entirely possible for them not to be The Hero.

Raven Wilder

That was put there because I had three examples where the clause "The Hero can die" applies.

In one work, it was stated that The Hero equals The Chosen One and only The Chosen One may defeat the Demon Lord. The Demon Lord is The Villain Protagonist. This obviously means he's right out of being The Hero since he was also The Chosen One but for being the Demon Lord, this isn't to say he isn't heroic in his own right (he was an Anti-Villain), it's just he isn't The Hero archetype of the story.

another example also had The Hero as The Chosen One, and the second chosen at that(it was emphasized that the chooser could easily choose another one should he die), however, he sucks, and The Protagonists were already on a mission to Save the World, but they were told by The Mentor that they simply can't because they have no power, so they just join forces with the guy and act as his Hero Secret Service. True to the spirit of the role, they merely let the guy get through the Big Bad. At the end of the story? it was implied The Hero tied up his loose ends, that's it, yet we get a few more epilogue scenes with The Protagonists, highlighting how unimportant he was to the main "avenge my Dead Little Sister" plot, if not the main conflict.

and yet another has The Hero as an archetype: someone who saves the day, and she does, but eventually fell from a Trauma Conga Line after realizing how crappy their Deconstruction world is and Got Drunk on the Dark Side and started going on a killing spree until her inevitable death by The Corruption.
Who saves the day in the end of the story? The Protagonist yes, but her death was one of the main factors that allowed her to do so. and even then her method was not "i'm luke skywalker and i'm here to rescue you" but more "change reality by Ascending to a Higher Plane of Existence and save everyone", which fits The Messiah more than it fits The Hero. Unless you'd argue that Jesus salvaging the world makes him The Hero as opposed to The Messiah?


On all examples, The Hero is important to the overall conflict, but are thrown to the sidelines or killed due to a plot reason and by not being the protagonist. meaning They're The Hero alright, but it's not their story.

edited 19th Jan '14 6:43:16 PM by ShanghaiSlave

None of those characters sound like The Hero.

Again, The Hero is, by definition, the most important of the good guys, so a story where The Hero is less important to the plot than some of the other good guys is a contradiction in terms. It sounds like what you're talking about is "this character is built up like they're The Hero, but it turns out they're actually not".

P.S. And there's nothing that says someone can't be The Hero and a Messianic Archetype.

Honestly, I've never had any idea what our page The Hero is supposed to be.

edited 19th Jan '14 11:13:25 PM by nrjxll

I guess that makes Hero Antagonist not The Hero huh... wait, what?

maybe we should get our definitions straight first before continuing on that...

Well, the first paragraph of the current description of The Hero, at least, is:

"This guy is a hero, pure and simple. He's almost always right, is a friend to all his teammates, and morally superior. He has a well-rounded skill set. He's not as strong as The Big Guy, or as smart as The Smart Guy, or as sensitive and socially adept as The Chick, but he's close. He can personally accomplish a variety of goals, but his real superpower is getting the whole diverse set of personalities under his command to focus and pull together. He'll always know who to ask for help, and when — and usually how."

I think The Hero is a bit too heavily written as the face of the Five-Man Band. It's also not always an unambiguous role, nor a single specific role. What the page speaks about is just one interpretation, which many people does not share. It's highly dependent on the narrative.

Yeah, that's a definite issue. The Hero shouldn't be written to be so specific to 5MB.

I loled when i read that as "five megabytes".

anyway, so we take The Hero to TRS? the problem seems pretty serious since the trope is everywhere.

and god knows what definition those wicks are using.

There's a difference between being a hero and being The Hero. A hero is simply a good person who goes through great risk and/or difficulty to help others and do the right thing. The Hero is the most important hero in a given story.

That said, there's nothing that says a Hero Antagonist can't also be The Hero, so long as they're up against a Villain Protagonist.

Right. Hero Antagonist is about a hero, not the hero.

& , that clears it up a bit. do we have that trope then, or should i rewrite Two Bit Hero to remove references to The Hero?

Well, you probably imagined "hero" as "person that saves the day", not as the The Hero trope.

Okay, so i'm going to rewrite it and put it on a fresh YKTTW.

the new laconic crazysamaritan (man, dude lives up to his name) proposed is

I'd like to focus on this to avoid future confusions with other tropes. how do i go about doing that?

I still need references to a "hero" character in the description.
If The Hero is not the right trope, what should I use instead?

bump.