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Ambiguous Name: Dark Chick
Deadlock Clock: 7th Mar '14 11:59 PM
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Ambiguous Name: Dark Chick get usage counts

 1 johnnye, Sun, 12th Jan '14 4:00:27 AM from Brighton, UK Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
Oy. Where to start?

The laconic helps, if we assume it's accurate. "The expressive/quirky member of the Five-Bad Band." (Note the lack of gender specification, which is backed up in parts of the description — apparently this doesn't have to be a woman.)

That definition is problematic enough in itself (it's going to be hell to work out whether examples are misused or not — how do you define "quirky"?), but the description and examples seem hopelessly confused as to whether this is Dark Action Girl, The Chick But Evil, or something else entirely. The name can't be helping, as "Evil Counterpart to The Chick" is the obvious implication (and then the first sentence of the description confirms that), even though I'm not really seeing how that fits with the laconic.

edited 12th Jan '14 4:02:45 AM by johnnye

Zaldrīzes buzdari iksos daor, so Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus.
At first I thought "Oh, this is real easy" but then I got further and further into the description.

Sounds simple enough, although is there a rule saying The Chick can't be evil?

  • Just as the heroic Chick represents diversity and an emphasis on emotion, so, too, does the Dark Chick.

Chicks represent diversity?

  • He/she (the gender ratio is fairly evenly split, literally at least in post-1970s works)

So why are we calling them chicks if they are just as likely to be dudes (to use a comparable masculine term)?

  • is the member of the villainous ensemble that adds a certain indescribable quality.

TV Tropes exists to describe things. How if we can't describe it, we shouldn't try.

  • How it does this can vary.

In otherwords, this can be anything or one of a bunch of different things, so it really is questionable that this can be narrowed down to something specific that can be coverded by one trope.

  • Most frequent is for the member to be a Token Minority (relative to their peers; it's not unheard of for this member to be a Token White or The One Guy), acting out their status to an excessive degree.

Token Minority The Same But More So? Not a good sign.

  • For example, if this member is the Dark Action Girl in a male dominated organization, she'll also base a lot of her actions and dialogue on how she is breaking gender stereotypes.

???

WTF? Why Scots?

edited 12th Jan '14 4:22:37 AM by Catbert

 3 Septimus Heap, Sun, 12th Jan '14 4:22:43 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Ignoring the laconic, I've always assumed that the trope is the Five-Bad Band counterpart to Five-Man Band's The Chick.

 4 the Adeptrogue, Sun, 12th Jan '14 6:24:26 AM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Ice!
[up]That had always been my assumption as well.

I would just keep the first two sentences of the first paragraph "Simply put, the Evil Counterpart to The Chick. Just as the heroic Chick represents diversity and an emphasis on emotion, so, too, does the Dark Chick." and then cut the rest of that paragraph entirely. Leave the rest alone then see what we're working with.

Maybe cut out the diversity bit from the second sentence too.

edited 12th Jan '14 4:24:14 PM by acrobox

 
 6 Larkmarn, Sun, 12th Jan '14 6:07:53 PM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
I actually began a wick check on this a few months ago. There was a fair amount of misuse for Dark Action Girl.

First eleven wicks (note: These were from a few months ago so they may be out of date:

edited 12th Jan '14 6:08:36 PM by Larkmarn

 7 Septimus Heap, Mon, 13th Jan '14 12:03:00 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Are we absolutely sure that Five-Bad Band (as opposed to a team, period) is a requirement for Dark Chick? I don't think that we need to restrict the trope like that.

 8 Larkmarn, Mon, 13th Jan '14 5:34:33 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
It has to be part of some group, either a Five-Bad Band, a Quirky Miniboss Squad, or something similar given the only concrete definition of the character is "member of the bad guy group who is weird."

I say if The Chick has to be female so does the Dark Chick. Saying that someone "adds a certain indescribable quality" should not be allowed. If The Chick keeps to group united through goodness the Dark Chick should keep the group united through evil. They should actually be counterparts of each other.

Part of the problem is The Chick's own Trope Decay. Partly as a result of "let's shoehorn every team into Five-Man Band" syndrome, The Chick drifted from its more sexist definition as "the token chick of the team" to a definition that had little to do with being female and more to do with being The Heart. I'm not sure if that's still the case or if The Chick has been redefined again, because I know this definition drift came up in a past Five-Man Band discussion, if only because I brought it up.

Dark Chick is inherently dependent on Five-Bad Band for its definition, but that doesn't necessarily mean every Dark Chick is a member of a Five-Bad Band, and Five-Bad Band itself, I suspect, represents a questionable effort to find an Evil Counterpart to Five-Man Band from when it was already being heavily misused.

 11 Shanghai Slave, Tue, 14th Jan '14 2:31:30 AM from YKTTW Relationship Status: is commanded toŚ WANK!
"let's shoehorn every team into Five-Man Band" syndrome

This has always struck me as something people did because Five-Man Band is an extremely specific pattern who's only plausible addendum is The Sixth Ranger, and a lot of "groups where members have specific strengths" are somehow "shoehornable" to it since it's apparently the only one in Cast Calculus that covers groups larger than Four-Temperament Ensemble and Power Trio. making it a very nice target for shoehorning and other Follow the Leader tropes like The Magnificent Seven Samurai.

<offtopic>
Basically, any example that isn't a permanent team (that never grows more than six) that consist of The Hero, The Lancer, The Smart Guy, The Big Guy, The Chick, and The Sixth Ranger doesn't count. The Leader, Team Pet and heck, The Mentor and "second versions of existing roles (like having two The Chick with one Action Girl and one The Medic" being somehow part of it is bollocks.

same goes for Five-Bad Band.

I blame it on adding the "associated character tropes". which probably makes people read it as "additional shoehornable members"
</offtopic>

pretty sure there are two tropes here, one is the Psycho Rangers version of The Chick (which i'd say can be safely shoehorned there as an inversion) and "The Token "diversity" guy in a Villain Ensemble".

edited 14th Jan '14 2:47:38 AM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
I agree there are two tropes here, but disagree with what they are. We've got "Token Female, but evil" and "The Heart, but evil." For the latter, they might not be the Token Good Teammate, but they're still the glue that keeps the rest of the team together.
Asfar as shoehorning, that's now solved by The Team which allows for different versions of the same role (like Action Girl Chick and The Heart Chick) as well as no cap on number of members or genders etc.

As for Dark Chick the definition is pretty solid in my mind but just needs some clarification.

edited 15th Jan '14 8:33:36 AM by acrobox

 
side note diversity here means diversity of thought/opinion/lifestyle/skill set, not diversity in the usual sense meaning race/gender/class/sexual orientation.

As such in the trope description it should be qualified as such or just use a different word.
 
 15 Shanghai Slave, Wed, 15th Jan '14 8:04:51 PM from YKTTW Relationship Status: is commanded toŚ WANK!
[up][up] There's still remnants of shoehorning on Five-Man Band. i'm guessing this is due to Five-Bad Band, which makes FMB the go-to trope "the team The Hero is on regardless of number".

that aside, anyone's free to clean them up right? what edit reason would prevent someone reading shit, EDITING them? sorry, i lost track of my thoughts there. took me a while to edit... fail.

also yeah, that's the diversity i'm referring to as well.

edited 15th Jan '14 9:46:24 PM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
was my interpretation of Dark Chick agreeable, (^ ^ ^ acrobox, post #13) should I just go in and make edits?

edited 16th Jan '14 6:36:02 PM by acrobox

 
Bump. We've got three different solutions suggested: Split into Evil Chick and Token Evil Female, split into Token Evil Female and The Dark Heart, and narrowing the definition a bit.
 18 Rethkir, Mon, 3rd Feb '14 9:20:12 PM from the gap between dimensions Relationship Status: Singularity
I can't think about The Dark Heart without thinking DARKHEART! Sorry, I had to.

But, I agree that Dark Chick should be a girl just as The Chick is. It doesn't make sense for a male character to fill this role, since The Chick must be a girl. The name should probably be called The Dark Chick (current name can redirect to this) since most members of The Team are called that. "The" may seem trivial, but it helps indicate that it's a role, rather than just a dark chick.
Image Source. Please update whenever an image is changed.
 19 Willbyr, Tue, 4th Mar '14 7:54:41 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Clock is set.
 21 Willbyr, Wed, 5th Mar '14 3:53:20 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
Crowner's hooked.
 22 Spark 9, Mon, 17th Mar '14 11:36:54 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
The Dark Heart sounds like it's similar to Your Cheating Heart or like The Heartless, or the negative counterpart of What Kind of Lame Power Is Heart, Anyway?.

Given how many heart-named tropes we have, I don't think The Dark Heart is a good choice for this one.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
we also havent even gotten any descriptions of what such a trope would be.

If someone is The Heart (the glue that keeps the team together) does it matter if they're on the good guys team or bad guys team?

edited 17th Mar '14 5:59:32 PM by acrobox

 
[up]Heartness isn't usually something one associates with evil. Not much of a criterion for tropeworthiness, but a hint of one.

 25 shimaspawn, Tue, 18th Mar '14 8:23:58 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
I think that maybe the glue that holds the bad guys together is a bad description. It's sort of a combination of Morality Pet + most likely to Heel-Face Turn and generally when they do it indicates that the remaining bad guys have gotten even more evil. I don't think that roll is necessarily Always Female. It can be a male with a Code of Honour, but I also don't think heart or chick is the best name for the roll, even if those tend to be the counterpart good rolls.

The real important things seem to be that they're less evil than the rest of the bad guys, and when the bad guys lose them (either death or Heel-Face Turn), it's generally a sign that the bad guys becoming even more evil or escalating their behaviour in some way.

edited 18th Mar '14 8:26:37 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick

Page Action: Dark Chick
4th Mar '14 8:01:45 PM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
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