a different Zero Context Example

So hanging out in YKTTW and occasionally reading examples. i noticed that some examples have context, but the context itself is completely irrelevant to the trope or explains nothing about it.

it's not Zero Context Example (okay, it is), since the examples actually explain something. but it doesn't explain why it counts.

common form of it:

let's say Circus Brat

• Alice was this in the first season.

or Shapeshifter Showdown

• In Show X's finale, Jafar had this with Loki.

obviously, actual instances tend to be longer.

actual examples ad verbatim from a YKTTW about kids who grew up with Adventurer Archaeologist (scientist,biologist,zoologist, whatever) parent.

• Rusty Venture from The Venture Bros. is a deconstructive parody of this, living his entire life in the shadow of his Super Scientist dad, and ending up depressed, neurotic and abusive of his own children. (has enough context that we can assume he's also a super scientist. which may be wrong but better that nothing)

Film

• Cady from Mean Girls WAS this before the events of the movie, although it doesn't come up much beyond being the reason she has No Social Skills. irrelevant context

Live-Action TV

• In The River, Lincoln Cole was this growing up, but he didn't enjoy it very much, causing him to hate both his father and fieldwork. irrelevant context
• Indiana Jones himself was this early in his life, as shown in The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles does not explain anything about how he counts

Literature

• Tash and Zak Arranda from Galaxy Of Fear, except that they're traveling with their uncle rather than a parent. irrelevant context

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so should Zero Context Example be expanded or is this one distinct enough?

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

I think those are often more a failure to understand what's important about the trope, often taking the title literally and forgetting that Tropes Are Not Narrow, rather than someone who writes a Zero Context Example because she's too lazy or hasty to write a proper one.

And while writing when sometimes happens doesn't explain the trope, it is still good information relevant to the trope.

Check out my fanfiction!

Saying "X is this", or "X was this" is redundant. By putting a character in an example, we assume that you are making an affirmative statement about them; it's not necessary to tell us this explicitly. It's an example of what we refer to in Word Cruft as "mind-boggling verbal tics". It's space-filling; obfuscating the fact that you aren't providing any useful information.

Similarly, stating when a trope applies or applied is fine, but if you haven't said how it applies, you've still got a ZCE.

• Trope: I am writing this example entry to tell you about how X is an example of this trope. He started being an example in episode 2 and continued being an example throughout the series, except in episode 6 when it was subverted. It's also lampshaded several times by the other characters.

The above is three sentences of pure, uncut Zero Context Example.

edited 20th Dec '13 6:53:26 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

yeah, that's exactly the problem here. I spy a lot of ZCE's that use the different "format" of merely saying "when" and not "how" they apply.

So i'm saying we add a bit more to ZCE about them, since How To Write An Example may be too much Wall of Text for the average newbie to read. Also, there's Is This An Example which instead opts to show what a bad example and a good one is.

That too. but if it doesn't help unfamiliar readers understand how a character/work couns as the trope, i feel that's still ZCE.

edited 20th Dec '13 4:39:41 PM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

Most of the entries in the opening post are Zero Context Examples. They all leave the "how does it apply?" out.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

that's my issue. i don't think "How does it apply?" is in the Zero Context Example page.

I'm asking if we can add it.

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

There should be a bullet point on the /How to Write an Example page about how examples need to explain how a work uses a trope. I know it's there on the page but that really needs to be its own point, like the first one.

I added another bit to Zero Context Example about explaining "how" as opposed to "when".

I invite ideas on how to clarify How To Write An Example without duplicating that section.

edited 21st Dec '13 6:35:35 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

This entire stance on Zero Content Examples is annoying, and I just really noticed it after reading the Balloon Fight page. It is Always Night in the game, what else is there to type about the subject? I mean what other meaningful thing is there to put? Further elaboration really comes off like Word Cruft.

That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes

There is always some useful information to add about an example other than simply the name of the trope or the work. If you really can't think of anything, then consider that it may be Not An Example, or that the trope itself is People Sit On Chairs.

I look at the Always Night article and I see loads of explanation being given.

edited 21st Dec '13 6:38:19 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Or that every stage in the game has a night sky and that nothing else is said about why?

Maybe it was laziness on the part of the developers, maybe it was supposed to have an explanation that was accidentally left out or maybe someone just liked the look? There is nothing substantial to really say about it though but the fact there are plenty of con-temporarily NES games to Balloon fight that do not have a permanent nighttime background means it is not people sitting on chairs. It noticeable for nothing else but the sake that it is always night.

Invincible, by contrast has a single town that is always night because of a spell, it does not apply to the work as a whole, thus it is worth elaborating on.

That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes

Then the example should say exactly what you said: "Every stage in the game is at night and no explanation is given as to why." That's perfect.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I'd note that repeating part or all of the basic definition of the trope in the example is a form of Word Cruft and probably should be avoided. If the entire example is that, then it's just another ZCE.

In this case, Fighteer's example could be rewritten for a work page as:

• Always Night: Applies to every stage, with no explanation given.

Or on the trope page:

• In Work X, this applies to every stage, with no explanation given.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

Nope. You are missing the point that the trope name is insufficient to establish context. Spelling it out for the reader is what you're supposed to do.

edited 21st Dec '13 9:39:24 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Also, Word Cruft is for information-less writing. "There is no explanation for it" is not informationless text.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Taken on its own perhaps, I can buy that reasoning for a trope page, but on the page of a work explicitly stated to have no plot to speak of? No, it does not add any information of merit, nor is it wanting for any. What needed to be type was already done so on other parts of the page.

But it is really just one example of many. "Auto-Scrolling Level:Balloon Trip Mode" Zero content even though page description already told you the details about the mode. Scoring points was zero content even though the description already tells of a bragging rights "high score".

At this point my thoughts were "Why even have a description?", as if we had become Youtube as I scratch my head trying to think of something to put down that would not be totally redundant.

edited 21st Dec '13 10:14:52 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes

What has "no plot" do to with "no information"? Also, the point of a description is not to serve as a substitute for example context.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

No, that is not its "purpose" but sometimes it already does nonetheless. Not saying it should be such for every trope example or even that every marked point had already been covered but plenty enough had.

For example, Balloonacy does not really need elaboration when you have already been told repeatedly that the whole game is about flying with balloons. On a page that is not all about explaining what balloon fight is I can see why you would be asked to Please Elaborate and even still I complied, even though I felt the whole thing was just insulting my intelligence as well as that of every other potential reader/editor. It would be like blanking mutants on a character page that just got done telling you how such and such mutated.

That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes

One, the vast majority of examples is not going to be explained in the description. Second, yout Mutant example still needs to explain all that stuff, otherwise it's too uninteresting to stay around.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Are we sure Always Night means that the setting of the story is always in the night? because the description, laconic, and most of the examples seem to indicate that it's about scary or menacing things always happening at night.

We've had multiple threads about zero context examples and in almost every one of them somebody brings up a trope they feel is an exception, except it's usually not, because it's either not a trope, or the troper is misreading it.

Always Night seems to be used as "Night as a permanent setting time", which is correct only if it involves horror.

@8 Fighteer: Awesome, thanks.

as for clarifying How To Write An Example. how about we enumerate examples of good and bad examples at the beginning like in Is this an Example? also maybe follow Clear Concise Witty's format of having a mnemonic... or maybe use that as a mnemonic for examples as well. kinda like

• Clear: must explain the trope with the least amount of words.
• Concise: leave out unnecessary details as much as possible.
• Witty: avoid being 'witty' as much as possible.

of course, the above mnemonic would be next to useless, but i think it's a start.

edited 22nd Dec '13 2:23:00 AM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

@ Fighteer, Septimus: If that's all you got out of my post, you completely misread it. (Compare the examples I provided with Fighteer's example.)

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

I think we were both referring to Indirect Active Transport.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I can acknowledge you were (my bad in that case), but Fighteer doing so would have been double-posting, so he probably was addressing me.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

This discussion where tropers are suggesting that repeating information from the trope description or work description in the entry example reminds me of an old YKTTW of mine.

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The first thing someone sees about a trope is generally the name. The second thing they generally see is the example. The third thing is the actual description itself.
...
The next likely encounter someone will have is an example of the trope on a work page. They'll see the trope name, and read the description next to it, and draw their conclusions of the trope's meaning from that example. Because of that, we need to be careful when we write those examples. Please read How to Write an Example.

edited 22nd Dec '13 6:45:53 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.