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Misused (page action crowner 1/4/14): Mutually Fictional get usage counts

 1 Karjam P, Sun, 15th Dec '13 12:31:48 PM from South Africa Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
This trope's about a character from Show A visiting a character from Show B, only to discover while Show B is considered a fictional work in the world of Show A, in contrast, Show A is considered a fictional work in Show B.

However, it seems that there's some problems with the trope, namely, that there's people who confuses this trope with Reciprocal Fiction Paradox, and the fact that people are listing one sided examples. (IE, Show B doesn't exist as a fictional work in Show A, but Show A does. The trope claims that Comic Books Are Real is this trope, but said trope's about "shows turning out to be real", not this.)

Correct:

One-sided:

Mistaken for Reciprocal Fiction Paradox:

Unclear:


And that's only the main page.

What do we do? Expand the trope to include the one-sided thing? Rename the trope? Put all the examples that don't fit here onto their relevant tropes?
EDIT: That's what comes of copying and pasting from Notepad without disabling word-wrap first: the text gets messed up. surprised

edited 16th Dec '13 1:48:33 AM by KarjamP

 2 Larkmarn, Sun, 15th Dec '13 5:31:00 PM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
I absolutely 100% thought this trope was the Reciprocal Fiction Paradox.

 3 StarSword, Sun, 15th Dec '13 7:15:28 PM from somewhere in deep space Relationship Status: In denial
Dragon Writer
Whoa, deja vu.
 5 nrjxll, Mon, 16th Dec '13 1:03:42 AM Relationship Status: Not war
I feel like there's too many tropes for this basic concept.

 6 Karjam P, Mon, 16th Dec '13 1:46:00 AM from South Africa Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
[up][up]The fact that there was a Trope Repair Shop discussion before this one describing similar issues is saying something. tongue

 7 Karjam P, Tue, 17th Dec '13 2:09:33 PM from South Africa Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
Okay, so what do we do?

 8 Rethkir, Tue, 17th Dec '13 3:18:38 PM from the gap between dimensions Relationship Status: Singularity
First of all, there's the title. "Mutually Fictional" implies the same exact thing as Reciprocal Fiction Paradox, which is what I always thought this was. The title must indicate that it's a crossover. And to be honest, I'm really confused by this trope's definition. It's too specific. It doesn't even seem tropeworthy.

edited 17th Dec '13 5:31:16 PM by Rethkir

I'm with Rethkir. The super-specific crossover trope is Too Rare to Trope. It's not supported in the examples and it doesn't match the trope's name at all. I vote merge.

edited 17th Dec '13 11:03:48 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
 10 StarSword, Tue, 17th Dec '13 11:33:06 PM from somewhere in deep space Relationship Status: In denial
SF-81A Black Knight
Merge. Personally I like Mutually Fictional better for the final name (more concise).
 11 Septimus Heap, Tue, 17th Dec '13 11:38:09 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Merge. Not quite differentiated enough.

 12 Karjam P, Wed, 18th Dec '13 1:29:52 AM from South Africa Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
In that case, a merge from me as well, since I don't think it's a bad idea.

We'd still have to deal with the one-sidedness that a few of the examples are showing. (IE, where a character from Show A doesn't have Show B represented as a a work of fiction in their own world {although it still is}, but Show B has works of fiction representing Show A in their world.)

edited 18th Dec '13 1:31:55 AM by KarjamP

I suspect part of the reason for this trope as separate from Reciprocal Fiction Paradox is that this trope isn't trivia, which isn't that much of an objective reason to split (as it's basically Reciprocal Fiction Paradox But Lampshaded), but is more important from a wiki and tropey point of view.

On the other hand, it clearly isn't keeping examples of the one out of the other, since the great mass of tropers don't hold to the same strict division of tropes from YMMV/trivia that us sausage-makers do. But maybe that could be fixed with curation or a boldfaced notice.

edited 18th Dec '13 3:31:07 AM by MorganWick

 14 Rethkir, Wed, 18th Dec '13 5:15:33 AM from the gap between dimensions Relationship Status: Singularity
Mutually Fictional is really just The Same but More Specific of Reciprocal Fiction Paradox that requires a ridiculously specific and extraordinarily rare set of circumstances to occur. Take Futurama and The Simpsons. In Futurama, The Simpsons is a TV show created by Matt Groening, but in The Simpsons, Futurama is a TV show created by Matt Groening. The logical conclusion is that both cannot exist within a the same reality, because it's a paradox. This on it's one is tropeworthy, especially in this case when it's invoked intentionally. It's only trivia because it usually occurs by accident.

In order to be the current definition of Mutually Fictional, the upcoming crossover episode "Simpsonrama" would have to maintain the continuity established that Futurama is still fictional (And we all know how good The Simpsons is at keeping continuity.) It would have to require the specific plot something along the line of Bart and Lisa watching Futurama while Fry and Bender are watching The Simpsons, only to discover that they are watching each other, then they cross over through the TV. If, like the synopsis suggests, Futurama just takes place in the future, then that is not this trope.

So, the entire premise that they need to cross over while acknowledging the fictionality of the other work is way to specific, so it isn't even a trope. So, as stated before, it's Too Rare to Trope. Conclusion: MERGE

edited 18th Dec '13 5:17:13 AM by Rethkir

 15 Karjam P, Thu, 19th Dec '13 9:38:49 AM from South Africa Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
Anyone else?

 16 Rethkir, Thu, 19th Dec '13 1:20:15 PM from the gap between dimensions Relationship Status: Singularity
It doesn't seem like it's really Too Rare to Trope exactly, since there are seven valid examples up there... but it is certainly rare enough in comparison to the supertrope that it makes sense to do the merge.

It looks like most of us favor a merge, but we do need to clarify which direction we're merging.

While Reciprocal Fiction Paradox has the better description, I think Mutually Fictional is the better name, and it has more usage, so I favor Mutually Fictional as the name of the merged trope, but with Reciprocal Fiction Paradox's description.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
 19 Karjam P, Fri, 20th Dec '13 3:07:56 AM from South Africa Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
[up]And the current page image of Mutually Fictional (from xkcd), which demonstrates the trope better.

 20 Rethkir, Fri, 20th Dec '13 4:34:33 AM from the gap between dimensions Relationship Status: Singularity
Mutually Fictional has more wicks and is a shorter name. But since both names are pretty good, a redirect will suffice.

edited 20th Dec '13 4:34:59 AM by Rethkir

 21 Karjam P, Fri, 20th Dec '13 11:08:37 AM from South Africa Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
[up]Fair enough.

What would be the actual trope name and what would be the redirect?

 22 Rethkir, Fri, 20th Dec '13 12:16:05 PM from the gap between dimensions Relationship Status: Singularity
I'd say redirect Reciprocal Fiction Paradox to Mutually Fictional soley on the grounds that Mutually Fictional is a zippier name (and more wicks), but we should hold a crowner for that after it is agreed to merge.

 23 StarSword, Sat, 21st Dec '13 8:35:56 PM from somewhere in deep space Relationship Status: In denial
SF-81A Black Knight
Prepared a page action crowner for which title to keep, WHEN WE GET TO THAT POINT. (In other words, don't holler just yet.)
 24 Karjam P, Sun, 22nd Dec '13 12:51:42 PM from South Africa Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
Since there's 11 yays, can the crowner now be called?

 25 Septimus Heap, Sun, 22nd Dec '13 12:56:56 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
11 votes is too little. Also, it's been up for just 3 days.

Page Action: Mutually Fictional
21st Dec '13 8:32:14 PM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
It has been agreed to merge Mutually Fictional with Reciprocal Fiction Paradox. Which should be redirected to which?

Regardless of final title, the resulting trope will have Reciprocal Fiction Paradox's definition and description.
Total posts: 32
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