Does Not Illustrate: Armoured Closet Gay

I get what you're saying; the feet touching means they're in a relationship of some kind, whereas you envision characters who are ACG as being in denial to themselves first and foremost. So the feet touching means they acknowledge they're gay and aren't ACG so much as closeted for the sake of convenience (like, maybe the Anti-Gay-Alliance offers members comprehensive dental insurance).

That said I think ACG may still engage in homosexual activities, even being in relationships but hiding them from everyone out of deep shame and denial. The Grand Theft Auto, Anchorman, and Queer As Folk entries bear this out.

edited 24th Dec '13 5:04:58 PM by Earnest

Yes, exactly to the first paragraph.

Then the question kinda becomes if that's misuse of the trope. :) But then, I think this is one of those cases where it actually is a little open for interpretation.

I don't read the first paragraph as an example of this trope. The description doesn't imply that he is self-hating, or oblivious to his sexual orientation. He's just putting on a facade for everyone else.

Well yeah, a regular closet isn't anywhere near as homophobic or macho as the ACG.

However the trope description does have the line "He's the self-loathing gay guy who hides behind a macho façade" and mentions this is the most common form of You Are What You Hate, which in its own descriptions mentions being in deep denial/making crazy rationalizations as common variants. So he's definitely doing the façade and probably also either self-loathing or in denial.

I don't understand: the description doesn't mention denial. I don't see how a facade can be created if the character is in denial of their orientation. If the character is in denial, then the "facade" never comes off. Taking off the facade reads like an important aspect in the description.

They're denying it to everyone else for varying reasons, mainly Gayngst being one of the key ones if it's not You Are What You Hate. That it comes off... well, it's pretty ambiguous on that even with the paragraph describing how they do come out of the closet when nobody is looking. That we're discussing this probably means it's not that clear where it sits and probably have two tropes occupying the same space.

edited 25th Dec '13 8:59:14 AM by treelo

The facade that leads them to gay-bash is clearly enough (in my mind) to include on You Are What You Hate, because they "hate" their true self. Some of the loathing might even be real, if crossing over with Gayngst. But the trope itself doesn't seem to require self-loathing, and does require taking off the facade. (Or in the proposed image, the shoe XD)

edited 25th Dec '13 9:18:06 AM by crazysamaritan

Edit: Holy Trope Tan guys, you went and had a whole conversation while I was writing the one response.

Thanks, I wasn't sure I was getting the whole gist of your post the first time.

(The following is only tangentially related to the trope rather than about it's definition) Creating and maintaining a facade can in itself be a form of reinforcing denial, regardless of if it's taken off and on or is always on. Basically, you don't need to actively or consciously accept yourself as being gay to craft the facade. The character feels the same sex attraction, and probably subconsciously knows it's true in the very deepest corner of their mind, but seeks to bury that knowledge and works against accepting it by actively being hyper-masculine and gay bashing. That way they create and maintain a personal self image/identity as a normal hetero male.

Translated to troper: they are desperately trying to invoke Becoming the Mask to avoid realizing they are a Tomato in the Mirror.

(Regarding the trope) Tropes Are Flexible, and I think a character can be an example of ACG even if they don't drop the facade that often or at all. However you are right that the trope description does pretty heavily state there's a lot of duality involved in that half the time they're hyper-hetero and the rest they're on the prowl. But still, it does mention these characters as being self-hating and in denial via You Are What You Hate.

Personally, I think it's no less of a facade even if it never comes off.

edited 25th Dec '13 9:24:28 AM by Earnest

So we don't need a TRS thread?

edited 25th Dec '13 9:38:59 AM by treelo

Well, as far as I can tell our main points of difference of interpretation are:

1. The ACG character does or doesn't have to be in self-denial (some crossover with Selective Obliviousness / You Are What You Hate).
2. The ACG character does or doesn't have to take the facade on and off to cruise for partners/be in a relationship.
3. The ACG character is or isn't self-loathing (basically crossover with Gayngst).

Is the above what we've been talking about, and are these big enough differences to warrant a TRS or splitting the trope? Personally, I'd rather keep this a broad trope but we may just need to spell that out.

I think the current article already addresses 3 and 1 in the second paragraph, but that's just me.

edited 25th Dec '13 10:21:47 AM by Earnest

Good enough for me, it's got enough ambiguity to cause trouble.

Clock is set.

Currently TRS is trope backlogged, so we can't make repair thread. I'm loathe to lose the pic though. I'm thinking of leaving it in ACG's discussion page or as a %%'ed out object on the main article with a note to take it up in TRS and then IP.

edited 16th Jan '14 4:49:30 PM by Earnest

The pics will stay in this thread, so if/when it comes out of TRS we can come back to the suggestions here in a new thread. As is, the clock's up and we need to move on. Locking up.