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Needs Help: Yin Yang Clash
Deadlock Clock: 10th Apr '14 11:59 PM
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Needs Help: Yin Yang Clash get usage counts

 1 Bacon Maniac 5000, Sat, 7th Dec '13 7:20:36 PM from Beigeland Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Gone, but not forgotten.
On this page, it was recommended to make a repair shop page because:
the definition for the trope was too narrow and probably should be taken to TRS.
So I made a page for this trope.
lol blewed up filthy monkey planet
 2 Bacon Maniac 5000, Sat, 7th Dec '13 7:21:57 PM from Beigeland Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Gone, but not forgotten.
Sorry, the title is supposed to read: Yin-Yang Clash.
lol blewed up filthy monkey planet
Fixed. For future reference, you don't need to add in apostrophes when linking to a trope. YinYangClash in this case would be the correct page to link to.

 4 Bacon Maniac 5000, Sat, 7th Dec '13 7:53:06 PM from Beigeland Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Gone, but not forgotten.
Thanks.

Also, I suggested these pictures for the image, because the current one doesn't demonstrate it: [1] and [2]
lol blewed up filthy monkey planet
 5 the Adept Rogue, Sat, 7th Dec '13 9:55:58 PM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
[up]Can we discuss about the problems with the trope first, before worrying about the page image?

Anyway, the main complaint about this trope is that the definition is too narrow. Specifically, this trope is about two diametrically opposite, absolute forces that exists in/governs the same verse. Personally, I find that the description isn't entirely clear on this. On one hand, it mentions that this is a subtrope to Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny; but then it goes on to say that it is not necessary for the story to actually depict or even address about the clash. There is also no indication of what might constitute as an "unbreakable absolute, force".

Wait, Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny is about Intercontinuity Crossover fights. What the heck does that have to do with this trope?

edited 8th Dec '13 12:54:04 AM by Leaper

 7 Rethkir, Sun, 8th Dec '13 9:01:42 AM from the gap between dimensions Relationship Status: Singularity
[up] Which is directly contradicted by the opening line: "Two forces exist within the same 'verse", so yeah... The statement about Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny being a supertrope to this should be removed.

Now there are three outcomes: one of them actually is stronger than the other and wins, Sealed Evil in a Duel, and Reality-Breaking Paradox. The first of these options leaves the possibility, that they are not absolute, which is why I think it was unjustified for people to have insisted that they need to be absolute in the Image Pickin' discussion.

Suggestion: change the second sentence in the first line from
"Both of them are unbreakable absolutes."
to
"Both of them are seemingly unbreakable absolutes."

 8 Shanghai Slave, Sun, 8th Dec '13 9:47:43 AM from YKTTW Relationship Status: is commanded toŚ WANK!
Hmm, the last paragraph says Yin-Yang Clash is basically Unstoppable Force Meets Immovable Object but the trope is used without the phrase or the basic "battle of exact opposites".

Then Unstoppable Force Meets Immovable Object says that is basically about when people use the Stock Phrase to describe a battle. and that "two really strong guys fight" is Yin-Yang Clash.

huh.

EDIT: additionally both seem to refer to Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny as if basing the meaning on it's laconic which is "If character X and character Y had a fight, who would win?", which do not mention it being exclusively about crossovers.

edited 8th Dec '13 9:52:47 AM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
 9 the Adept Rogue, Mon, 9th Dec '13 2:15:12 AM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
[up]Fixed the Laconic of Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny, since that is obviously misleading. The page note in Unstoppable Force Meets Immovable Object which says that "two really strong guys fight" belong to Yin-Yang Clash is also problematic, because "any given situation where two Badasses battle with each other" isn't tropeworthy

edited 9th Dec '13 11:31:52 PM by theAdeptRogue

 10 Rethkir, Mon, 9th Dec '13 3:53:31 AM from the gap between dimensions Relationship Status: Singularity
 11 Bacon Maniac 5000, Tue, 17th Dec '13 5:33:07 PM from Beigeland Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Gone, but not forgotten.
So is this thread done? What happened?
lol blewed up filthy monkey planet
 12 Shanghai Slave, Wed, 18th Dec '13 8:00:52 PM from YKTTW Relationship Status: is commanded toŚ WANK!
[up] what happened? nothing so far from what i can see.

unless you have any ideas to put on the table yourself. IMO, we should rewrite the whole thing by using "the most common usage" as a starting point to redefining it. that way we can simply cut out ones that do no fit and maybe put them in Unstoppable Force Meets Immovable Object, since both seem to twin Sister Tropes.

EDIT: checking the examples in the Yin-Yang Clash page(i.e. not it's wicks), they all are either:

in other words, there is no proper usage so to speak. though given the description that's kinda expected.

edited 18th Dec '13 8:13:19 PM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
 13 Shanghai Slave, Wed, 18th Dec '13 8:23:40 PM from YKTTW Relationship Status: is commanded toŚ WANK!
checked almost half of the wicks (top until MOTHER).

the usage turns out to be one of the following:

excluding "clash of opposites" since that would be Unstoppable Force Meets Immovable Object, the closest thing to a proper definition (if half of all wicks is enough) is "two related concepts are pit against each other", example: Complete Immortality vs Resurrective Immortality or two people who have one of each.

edited 18th Dec '13 8:32:07 PM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
 14 Bacon Maniac 5000, Wed, 18th Dec '13 8:59:31 PM from Beigeland Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Gone, but not forgotten.
So is this a "Not Tropeworthy" trope?
lol blewed up filthy monkey planet
 15 StarSword, Wed, 18th Dec '13 10:00:48 PM from somewhere in deep space Relationship Status: In denial
SF-81A Black Knight
More like an extremely unclear definition.

Looking at the archived YKTTW this was nowhere near ready to launch when it went live, and started out as Unstoppable Force Meets Immovable Object. I'm inclined to say redirect to that and move examples and wicks around as needed.
 16 Septimus Heap, Wed, 18th Dec '13 11:21:41 PM from Muggio Valley, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
I would like to know what Shanghai is calling Unstoppable Force Meets Immovable Object there, because that one is about the actual phrase/the paradox. Not just any clash of yin and yang-like stuff.

As for this one, I agree that being absolutist about the conflict being irresolvable is not good for the trope. I would put the "seemingly" in.

 17 Shanghai Slave, Wed, 18th Dec '13 11:53:45 PM from YKTTW Relationship Status: is commanded toŚ WANK!
[up] every instance of "Shield vs Spear" and it's ilk. basically absolute opposites.

[up][up] I agree with that. there's is a trope here though. just not sure what.

edited 18th Dec '13 11:55:22 PM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
 18 Septimus Heap, Wed, 18th Dec '13 11:55:39 PM from Muggio Valley, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
Yep, that is not the Unstoppable Force Meets Immovable Object trope.

edited 18th Dec '13 11:56:00 PM by SeptimusHeap

 19 Shanghai Slave, Thu, 19th Dec '13 1:31:23 AM from YKTTW Relationship Status: is commanded toŚ WANK!
[up]check Myth and Legend on the page. it's there.

although yes, it is about the stockphrase. as someone mentioned Yin-Yang Clash started out as Unstoppable Force Meets Immovable Object but was later converted to exclude the stockphrase requirement, which is why i proposed to move stuff there instead, since i feel this one is just the same thing but without anyone referring to it with the stockphrase.
Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
 20 Septimus Heap, Thu, 19th Dec '13 1:33:06 AM from Muggio Valley, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
That's the less ideal solution. Simply expanding the definition of this trope is better and more productive than to throw the two tropes together.

 21 the Adeptrogue, Thu, 19th Dec '13 2:35:46 AM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
So what are the distinction between the two anyway? If Unstoppable Force Meets Immovable Object is simply about the stock phrase that defines Yin-Yang Clash, how is that even a valid trope?

edited 19th Dec '13 2:35:54 AM by theAdeptrogue

 22 Bacon Maniac 5000, Tue, 24th Dec '13 2:20:02 PM from Beigeland Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Gone, but not forgotten.
Bump?
lol blewed up filthy monkey planet
 23 the Adeptrogue, Thu, 26th Dec '13 7:51:05 PM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Well, I personally find that the description is way too vague. Particularly:

  • What constitutes as "absolute forces"? The note in Unstoppable Force Meets Immovable Object seem to imply that "a really strong character" is enough but I'd disagree because, in Fictionland, almost everyone is a Badass and, as such, that qualifier is meaningless. I personally think that the characters' powers or existence should have great influence over the balance of the Verse, but I'm not sure if that's narrowing it down too far.
  • They are "diametrically opposites" in what aspect? In the nature of their powers (e.g. light vs. darkness)? In their role in the universe (e.g. the creator vs. the destroyer)? In morality and ideals? In personality? According to the description, their nature have to contradict in such a way that their clash would result in a paradox (like the sword and shield lore), but this seem unnecessarily narrow, and the original concept of Yin-Yang are not meant to represent contradiction anyway.

 24 Shanghai Slave, Sun, 19th Jan '14 9:20:45 AM from YKTTW Relationship Status: is commanded toŚ WANK!
nearly forgot about this. anything new?
Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
Considering [up][up], I'd almost feel tempted to do a merge here.

Total posts: 41
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