Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital
- over 100,000 by some counts
Ukrainian protesters besiege government building
Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU
Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."
What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.
The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.
EDIT (2/24/2022)
This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.
Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.
The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.
While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."
This map will help track the latest developments.
Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.
No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.
When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM
A procrastination in of itself
That’s fair, I can see why the arming might look like a net positive, fingers crossed I turn out to be wrong.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
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Agreed.
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42493270
A POW swap's taking place between Kiev and separatists. Kiev reports that some are not taking up the offer to return back to the east.
edited 27th Dec '17 7:08:33 AM by Ominae
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Ukraine recognises its war as 'temporary Russian occupation'
The law defining the ongoing violence between Ukrainian forces and Russian-backed insurgents came after nearly four years of fighting that has claimed more than 10,000 lives.
The clashes broke out after street protests in Kiev toppled a Kremlin-backed leadership and sent Moscow's relations with the West to a Cold War-low thanks also to Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimea peninsula.
It has turned into a low-intensity conflict in which no territory changes hands while the sides trade rounds of periodically fatal shelling and sniper fire.
Kiev and its Western allies have long accused Russia of orchestrating the bloodshed in reprisal for Kiev's decision to pull out of its historic orbit and forge a closer alliance with the European Union.
The legislation also accuses Russia of "aggression" — a charge the Kremlin denies despite overwhelming evidence of its soldiers and weapons crossing the border into the war zone.
It further hands over the reins of the eastern campaign to the army from the security service in line with other international armed conflict.
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko is set to sign the measure as he was the one who had submitted it to parliament.
"We will continue to lay the groundwork for re-integrating the occupied Ukrainian territories through political and diplomatic means," Poroshenko tweeted after the 280-36 vote.
The seemingly symbolic change in the war's legal status in Ukraine came less than a month after the United States greenlighted its first delivery of anti-tank missiles to Kiev.
The powerful weapons are not expected in Ukraine for some months but have already seen Russia accuse Washington of fomenting fighting.
The Russian foreign ministry said Poroshenko was receiving "unlimited, close to dictatorial powers to suppress dissent and discontent."
"You cannot call this anything but preparation for a new war," the ministry said in a statement.
It added that Russia "could not fail to note that this law's adoption remarkably 'coincided' with the announcement in Washington on the United States' readiness to supply lethal weapons to Ukraine."
And a senior rebel leader in eastern Ukraine said Kiev was violating the spirit of a tattered 2015 peace deal signed in the Belarusian capital Minsk.
"Unfortunately, this completely breaks the Minsk Agreements, contradicting them," separatist chief Alexander Zakharchenko told reporters in the rebel stronghold Donetsk.
The 2015 deal was brokered with the help of Germany and France. There was no immediate response Thursday from Berlin or Paris.
Beware the Crazy Man.
If Minsk is dead, I wonder if Russia will start pushing again, especially now that its winding down it's ground forces in Syria...
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
Maybe it's because I just finished reading an article about it, but I'm getting serious vibes about an ironic repeat of the Great Northern War with the Russians acting as the Swedes if they did so.
After decisively defeating the Russians at the Battle of Narva, the Swedes withdrew their forces from the Baltics to deal with resistance in Poland, which then promptly subjugated. Afterwards, they then returned to Russia to force an end to the war, only to encounter a rebuilt, rearmed, and retrained Russian army waiting for them at the fields of Poltava in Ukraine . . .
Might be, but it just as well might turn out to be wishful thinking.
AFAIK, the Ukrainian army was neither retrained nor rebuilt. The main problems it is struggling with have not changed: rampant corruption, poorly trained and mostly unmotivated soldiers and officers, poor leadership and, in most of the cases, equipment. Under such circumstances, Javelin missiles seem nothing the rebels cannot counter, especially with Russian aid.
What should be much more concerning is the fact that due to the mentioned level of corruption within the army, it is not unlikely that these weapons will ultimately get to certain groups with malnevolent intentions. For instance, I wouldn't be surprised if the Chechen volunteer groups fighting alongside the Ukrainians didn't have connections with the Caucasus Emirate, which, in turn, is provenly connected to Middle Eastern terrorist organizations...
The army as a whole will take years, but they have been slowly retrained and organized under NATO training programs. This includes creating an NCO corps, better tactics and use of equipment etc. improving the chances of the guys on the ground. It's about prioritization right now, with most of the fighting troops still relying on volunteer groups to deliver equipment and other stuff.
edited 22nd Jan '18 10:38:03 PM by TerminusEst
Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
If it takes years, I don't think Russia will not be able to provide similar aid to the rebels.
Also, over the course of years, many things can happen. A new Ukrainian government might replace the current one, with different political views, and so on.
They will certainly try though, Putin probably sees this conflict as a war against the west, and the US did send anti-tank equipment to ukrainians recently, so he will probably be reluctant to back down.
Striking parallels with the war in Yemen really, now that I notice, except there it's Saudi Arabia vs Iran.
Life is unfair...
If the Ukrainian army makes any attempts at intensifying its military operations, Russia will certainly respond accordingly.
edited 23rd Jan '18 1:33:13 PM by LordforlornII
Beware the Crazy Man.
I'll add too that Ukraine's internal politics are not homogenous. Depending on how elections go, how and where the military is used will change. As will levels of corruption regarding their equipment and training.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
X-posting from European politics thread:
Sweden says it's open to leading UN peacekeeping mission in Ukraine
And in response:
President Niinistö: Finland would back peace-keeping operation in East Ukraine
Niinistö gave his statement on Saturday evening at the international Munich Security Conference.
"This is the largest problem now facing Europe. If there's any indication that the situation could be resolved, Finland must take part both in spirit and action," the president said.
Beware the Crazy Man.
BTW, dunno if it was reported here alreadym but Saakashvili was kidnapped by the Ukrainian Security Service and deported to Poland. He has since gone on to the Netherlands. Will this end his attempts at coming to power in Kiev or will Poroshenko still have to watch his back, who knows...
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
I can at least confirm that persons in hood snatched him. Looks like he was caught in Ukraine while eating a meal.
The video's on FB IIRC.
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Ukrainian military commander: Foreign volunteers want to join Georgian Legion in eastern Ukraine
“We recently announced the enrollment of volunteers in the Georgian Legion. This is already an international legion, so to speak. American specialists and military analysts agreed to distribute information among American, Canadian and Australian volunteers, who want to join us,” he noted.
According to Mamulashvili, the Georgian National Legion is expected to be significantly reinforced with experienced soldiers.
“We passed on our program according to which they will be trained. I think that many foreign citizens will come to us. This will play a positive role. There will be a stream not of amateurs, but of people who have already had good training,” the legion’s commander emphasized.
He admitted that the news would cause a real stir amongst the Kremlin’s propagandists.
“They have said many times already that there is a company of American specialists, although it is still only a few people. This will cause them to panic. They don’t like to enter a direct confrontation. They mostly use artillery fire in order to stop us. To put it bluntly, they’re afraid,” he concluded.
A Ukrainian fighter pilot, who Moscow slandered as the one responsible for shooting down MH 17, has committed suicide.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43457694
Poor bastard, just goes to show how propaganda can kill at the micro and macro levels.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
Sad indeed.
Politsiya will still investigate under the assumption of murder...
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
Savchenko is recently arrested by the SBU for trying to wage a coup. Denies it as of now and claims that it’s a false flag.
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Is it the one where she collapses the Rada's roof with a mortar strike and then finishes off the survivors with grenades and machineguns?
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
Think so.
Crimea's getting a new bridge to link it with the rest of the Russian mainland. Ukraine is obviously not happy.
Guess it's going to get lost forever to Russia...
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Would that it were so simple.
Guess it's going to get lost forever to Russia...
...Did you expect Ukraine to ever retake it? Even without a physical connection to the mainland, Crimea is packed with ethnic Russians, occupied by the Russian Navy, and had a plebiscite to join up with the Russian Federation. Even if we reject the vote as illegitimate, that still makes it a territory impossible for the Ukrainian government to realistically hold.
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
A procrastination in of itself
Yeah it’s not like it’s under military occupation, the seizing of it was illegal and done in a terrible way but Ukraine doesn’t get the right to ever take it back and ignore the will of the people there.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
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I wasn't suggesting that was your position, I apologize if I gave that impression (after looking back at my post I clearly worded it quite poorly).
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn