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Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital- over 100,000 by some counts

Ukrainian protesters besiege government building

Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU

Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."

What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.

The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.


EDIT (2/24/2022)

This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.

Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.

The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.

While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."

This map will help track the latest developments.

Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.

No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.

When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.

Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM

MattStriker Since: Jun, 2012
#5201: Jul 24th 2014 at 7:26:45 PM

@Cornelli: The Buk is a soviet-era design, but somewhat improved versions are still in production. I believe the ones the ukrainian military uses are still soviet vintage gear with a few upgrade packages added on. The russian army has largely upgraded to the later, post-soviet versions by now.

And regarding the "Ukrainian Ace" theory...even a Frogfoot pilot with a lot of combat missions under his belt would probably not have a lot of air-to-air experience. That thing is strictly a ground-attack plane, basically the russian equivalent of the A-10 (albeit somewhat smaller and lighter, a bit faster and less of a flying tank), which makes that whole line of reasoning even more silly.

edited 24th Jul '14 7:33:19 PM by MattStriker

Reality is for those who lack imagination.
emuran from the wild frontier Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#5202: Jul 25th 2014 at 1:06:43 AM

Lysychansk has now definitely been taken by Ukrainian forces. It's a pretty important victory, because Lysychansk is a geographically strong fortress (you can practically only assault it from one side).

While Yatsenyuk has gained an insane popularity boost through his tenure as PM, people only see him in that position. It's highly doubtful he will be supported for presidency.

And yes, the early signs are that he, and Turchynov, will leave Batkivshchyna.

Khto tse, mamo-mamo?
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5203: Jul 25th 2014 at 1:10:08 AM

How is Yats leaving the state's coffers, by the way? Embezzlement has been fairly popular activity for Ukrainian PMs.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
emuran from the wild frontier Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#5204: Jul 25th 2014 at 1:14:37 AM

Huge improvement from February (not hard, considering Yanik left an empty budget when he ran away), but the financial situation is still precarious.

Khto tse, mamo-mamo?
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#5205: Jul 25th 2014 at 2:48:11 AM

I think the New Straits Times just cited Global Research as a source in an article on the shootdown today. Yes, that Global Research. They must've realised who they just used as a source, as I can't find it on their website, but the gist of it is that according to them and some other "intelligence sources", that the Ukrainian SAM regiment in the vicinity of the crash site was not overrun and it was, naturally, the Ukrainians' fault. Did it appear on RT before this?

As I said previously, a disturbingly large amount of Malaysians will lap up anything.

edited 25th Jul '14 2:48:23 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
emuran from the wild frontier Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#5206: Jul 25th 2014 at 3:11:45 AM

We got a new theory incoming from Russian media: The Boeing was shot by the UAF inadvertently during a training exercise.

Khto tse, mamo-mamo?
BokhuraBurnes Radical Moderate from Inside the Bug Pit Since: Jan, 2001
Radical Moderate
#5207: Jul 25th 2014 at 8:18:45 AM

[up][up][up] Wasn't that mainly due to the infusion of IMF money?

First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5208: Jul 25th 2014 at 11:12:42 AM

I am just getting some information on the bill whose defeat in the Rada is blamed for Yatsenyuk's resignation. It included privatizations apparently.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
emuran from the wild frontier Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#5209: Jul 25th 2014 at 11:35:34 AM

[up] That was the last bill that failed, but truth is - there wmdre tons of other crucial bills the Rada failed in the last few weeks. That was only the last straw.

Khto tse, mamo-mamo?
SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#5210: Jul 28th 2014 at 9:26:19 AM

And now the UN is considering classifying the shooting down of MH17 to be a war crime.

Not a fat lot of good it'll do, especially given the lack of respect the UN has these days, but at least it means they recognize the situation might be getting just a wee bit out of hand.

BokhuraBurnes Radical Moderate from Inside the Bug Pit Since: Jan, 2001
Radical Moderate
#5211: Jul 28th 2014 at 9:40:33 AM

I just saw that one of the bills that stalled in the Ukrainian parliament and led to Yatsenyuk's resignation involved paying the salaries of the military. As a result, come August 1st, the Ukrainians fighting the separatists won't be getting paid for their efforts.

Emuran (or anyone else), do you have any idea why this particular bill got held up? I would have thought that this would have been a no-brainer for all factions in the government (barring former Party of Regions members who have fled the country, of course).

First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5212: Jul 28th 2014 at 9:42:10 AM

Why do I expect the answer to be "Party of Regions/Communist obstructionism"? Remember, the latter have been separatism tolerant for a while and certain elements of the former are said to be involved in the unrest.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#5213: Jul 28th 2014 at 2:14:07 PM

If that were true, the parliament wouldn't have been able to do as much as it has. More likely its just corruption.

Speaking of Ukraine, the deal Malaysia made with the seperatists for a ceasefire has been violated by Kiev yesterday.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#5215: Jul 28th 2014 at 2:49:22 PM

They tried to move in forces during the ceasefire, it seemed. Now fighting has restarted.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#5216: Jul 28th 2014 at 2:49:52 PM

[up][up][up]I did not know that Kiev agreed to any ceasefire.

edited 28th Jul '14 2:50:00 PM by Mio

FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#5217: Jul 28th 2014 at 2:54:23 PM

The rebels would never have stopped unless Kiev was party to the deal. Otherwise the deal doesn't work.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#5218: Jul 28th 2014 at 2:55:20 PM

What, you mean they wouldn't do it just to try and take the moral high ground?

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#5219: Jul 28th 2014 at 2:57:06 PM

If anyone can give me reliable sources on the ceasefire itself before it ended, that'd be great.

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#5220: Jul 28th 2014 at 2:57:57 PM

Any links, Shinra-sama?

Either someone in the Ukrainian military has been telling tall tales, or World of Tanks is more realistic than we thought.

From the Ukrainian Military VKontakte portal:

And now the story. Our boys from 51st decided to find out, where the tanks of the separatists are disappearing to and started hunting for them. They got noticed by the separatists and one of their tanks turned around and went at our boys. It started shooting at them with its gun and machinegun. Our guys went to the ground and thought “we’re screwed, the tank will get us”. But suddenly, an Ukrainian BTR rushes in. It starts to circle around the tank, hammering its turret with its main gun. The tank starts to turn around, trying to aim its turret at the BTR but it does not have enough speed and maneuverability. Then the tank tries to run away, but the BTR continues to shoot its turret at close distance until there is an explosion, which tears the turret off. The guys in the BTR turned out to be from the 72nd Brigade. Such aces we have now!

If that's true - and its a big if, because I wouldn't stake anything on a BTR's 30mm gun getting through a T-62's turret - then someone needs to give the crew a medal. If not, well, if it boosts morale, its a fairly harmless bar/barracks tale to boost morale at a tough time for Ukraine's army.

edited 28th Jul '14 2:58:35 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Cyran FATAL Survivor Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
FATAL Survivor
#5221: Jul 28th 2014 at 3:13:34 PM

Eh? I thought the Malay PM made the deal with the separatist leadership. That's why it was so surprising because he went over the heads of the Ukrainian government entirely and talked to the guys with the guns at the scene of the crash.

"That wizard came from the moon!"
FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#5222: Jul 28th 2014 at 3:38:37 PM

NYT has the story, since thats where I saw the headline. I'm paywalled however.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#5223: Jul 28th 2014 at 3:39:31 PM

Bugger. Me too.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Cyran FATAL Survivor Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
FATAL Survivor
#5224: Jul 28th 2014 at 3:44:05 PM

Damn you, NYT Paywall, damn you!

edited 28th Jul '14 3:44:17 PM by Cyran

"That wizard came from the moon!"
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#5225: Jul 28th 2014 at 3:46:09 PM

If the Ukrainian government wasn't consulted or didn't enter any negotiations about said ceasefire and it was, therefore, a deal between the Malaysian government and the rebels (and no one else), then they're not obliged to respect said agreement, right?

If the Ukrainian government entered said negotiations but didn't agree to anything, then the matter becomes a bit different.

Hope I'm not misunderstanding this.

edited 28th Jul '14 3:46:34 PM by Quag15


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