Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital- over 100,000 by some counts
Ukrainian protesters besiege government building
Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU
Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."
What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.
The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.
EDIT (2/24/2022)
This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.
Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.
The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.
While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."
This map will help track the latest developments.
Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.
No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.
When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM
Lysychansk has now definitely been taken by Ukrainian forces. It's a pretty important victory, because Lysychansk is a geographically strong fortress (you can practically only assault it from one side).
While Yatsenyuk has gained an insane popularity boost through his tenure as PM, people only see him in that position. It's highly doubtful he will be supported for presidency.
And yes, the early signs are that he, and Turchynov, will leave Batkivshchyna.
Khto tse, mamo-mamo?How is Yats leaving the state's coffers, by the way? Embezzlement has been fairly popular activity for Ukrainian PMs.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanHuge improvement from February (not hard, considering Yanik left an empty budget when he ran away), but the financial situation is still precarious.
Khto tse, mamo-mamo?I think the New Straits Times just cited Global Research as a source in an article on the shootdown today. Yes, that Global Research. They must've realised who they just used as a source, as I can't find it on their website, but the gist of it is that according to them and some other "intelligence sources", that the Ukrainian SAM regiment in the vicinity of the crash site was not overrun and it was, naturally, the Ukrainians' fault. Did it appear on RT before this?
As I said previously, a disturbingly large amount of Malaysians will lap up anything.
edited 25th Jul '14 2:48:23 AM by Krieger22
I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiotWe got a new theory incoming from Russian media: The Boeing was shot by the UAF inadvertently during a training exercise.
Khto tse, mamo-mamo?Wasn't that mainly due to the infusion of IMF money?
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.I am just getting some information on the bill whose defeat in the Rada is blamed for Yatsenyuk's resignation. It included privatizations apparently.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanThat was the last bill that failed, but truth is - there wmdre tons of other crucial bills the Rada failed in the last few weeks. That was only the last straw.
Khto tse, mamo-mamo?And now the UN is considering classifying the shooting down of MH17 to be a war crime.
Not a fat lot of good it'll do, especially given the lack of respect the UN has these days, but at least it means they recognize the situation might be getting just a wee bit out of hand.
I just saw that one of the bills that stalled in the Ukrainian parliament and led to Yatsenyuk's resignation involved paying the salaries of the military. As a result, come August 1st, the Ukrainians fighting the separatists won't be getting paid for their efforts.
Emuran (or anyone else), do you have any idea why this particular bill got held up? I would have thought that this would have been a no-brainer for all factions in the government (barring former Party of Regions members who have fled the country, of course).
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.Why do I expect the answer to be "Party of Regions/Communist obstructionism"? Remember, the latter have been separatism tolerant for a while and certain elements of the former are said to be involved in the unrest.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanIf that were true, the parliament wouldn't have been able to do as much as it has. More likely its just corruption.
Speaking of Ukraine, the deal Malaysia made with the seperatists for a ceasefire has been violated by Kiev yesterday.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...How was it violated?
They tried to move in forces during the ceasefire, it seemed. Now fighting has restarted.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...I did not know that Kiev agreed to any ceasefire.
edited 28th Jul '14 2:50:00 PM by Mio
The rebels would never have stopped unless Kiev was party to the deal. Otherwise the deal doesn't work.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...What, you mean they wouldn't do it just to try and take the moral high ground?
"Yup. That tasted purple."If anyone can give me reliable sources on the ceasefire itself before it ended, that'd be great.
Any links, Shinra-sama?
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Either someone in the Ukrainian military has been telling tall tales, or World of Tanks is more realistic than we thought.
From the Ukrainian Military VKontakte portal:
If that's true - and its a big if, because I wouldn't stake anything on a BTR's 30mm gun getting through a T-62's turret - then someone needs to give the crew a medal. If not, well, if it boosts morale, its a fairly harmless bar/barracks tale to boost morale at a tough time for Ukraine's army.
edited 28th Jul '14 2:58:35 PM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der ParteiEh? I thought the Malay PM made the deal with the separatist leadership. That's why it was so surprising because he went over the heads of the Ukrainian government entirely and talked to the guys with the guns at the scene of the crash.
"That wizard came from the moon!"NYT has the story, since thats where I saw the headline. I'm paywalled however.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...Bugger. Me too.
Schild und Schwert der ParteiDamn you, NYT Paywall, damn you!
edited 28th Jul '14 3:44:17 PM by Cyran
"That wizard came from the moon!"If the Ukrainian government wasn't consulted or didn't enter any negotiations about said ceasefire and it was, therefore, a deal between the Malaysian government and the rebels (and no one else), then they're not obliged to respect said agreement, right?
If the Ukrainian government entered said negotiations but didn't agree to anything, then the matter becomes a bit different.
Hope I'm not misunderstanding this.
edited 28th Jul '14 3:46:34 PM by Quag15
@Cornelli: The Buk is a soviet-era design, but somewhat improved versions are still in production. I believe the ones the ukrainian military uses are still soviet vintage gear with a few upgrade packages added on. The russian army has largely upgraded to the later, post-soviet versions by now.
And regarding the "Ukrainian Ace" theory...even a Frogfoot pilot with a lot of combat missions under his belt would probably not have a lot of air-to-air experience. That thing is strictly a ground-attack plane, basically the russian equivalent of the A-10 (albeit somewhat smaller and lighter, a bit faster and less of a flying tank), which makes that whole line of reasoning even more silly.
edited 24th Jul '14 7:33:19 PM by MattStriker
Reality is for those who lack imagination.