The Troper Shipping and Troper Dating Service thread needs help

Why not just move the current thread over to the Covens subforum?

Insert witty 'n clever quip here.

The current thread isn't much of a coven.

How is it not?

Insert witty 'n clever quip here.

The big thing is the lack of a topic.

And you do know Egg already made a coven?

The threat of shutdown produced by this thread seems to be enough to keep the drama away. Maybe making it clear that too much drama = locked thread somewhere on the main thread would keep it down permanently.

Well in 1941 a happy father had a son . . .

Trivialis: Why is it important to you that the thread stay true to its original intent? Yes, it was meant to be a quick discussion. Yes, it escalated into a massive chat. Yes, there is a clear disparity between these two stages of development. Yes, but what's so horrible about that? What I'm hearing is "The OP wanted 'X' to happen. Stray away from that and it's off with your head!". I see no problem with allowing threads to be organic to a certain extent. The intended discussion happened. A chat then ensued. The chat should have started elsewhere, somewhere more appropriate. What, exactly, is the harm? The thread has existed in its current state for years, and it's been both stable and prolific. It's doing exactly what a forum thread is meant to do. Let's hold off on axing it just because somebody failed to predict the scope of his actions something like three-four years ago. Judge the thread by what it is now.

Yes, it exists in a state of contradiction. Yes, that offends my sense of organization too. Yes. So change the OP or focus your attention elsewhere; let's not snuff a great conversation over natural progression from the topic of inception. Such progression happens with good conversations in meatspace; you start talking to your friends about the new Avengers movie, and it shifts into a discussion of comic physics, then famous bloopers, then the most notable directors, then the financial climate in Hollywood... Would you hear the shift in talk from the Avengers movie to comic physics and put your foot down?

In regards to drama: As I predicted, the looming guillotine blade of this thread is coinciding with a sharp reduction in misbehavior. Good! It's a start. Let's make this memory permanent with an appropriate header to keep the lesson fresh.

The coven I started was just a safety measure in case of a swift beheading; I did not intend for the coven thread to replace the current thread, but to house the displaced Shippers somewhere unified if the worst were to happen. I have made no attempt to promote activity in the coven thread. I will happily let it die if the current thread persists.

There should be no need for a crowner. This solution is patently obvious: 1) Leave the Shipping thread in Yack Fest, or port it over to Covens, but leave it open. 2) Add a header post with a greeting to newcomers, an explicit set of rules for smooth conversation, and a link to this thread to serve as an example of how serious etiquette really is. 3) For the sake of borderline-OCD Tropers (yours truly very much included), modify the original post to declare the Shipping Thread a chatting thread and remove the queasy disparity between intent and repercussions.

edited 28th Nov '13 9:00:09 AM by EgregiousOne

"I'm not a nerd. I'm a specialist." ~Sousuke Sagara

Making a header already requires modifying the OP.

@ramuf: I figure that'd be the best solution to port this over there (as Eggo put it). Everyone already is in the thread and doesn't want to give it up, so it'd be the same thread. It is its own little community of likeminded people, which I figured is all that is needed for a Covens thread. And yes, I know a thread was already started there, but a) it was started prematurely, and b) no one is going to want to move to a whole new different thread—they obviously would prefer keeping the old one, and moving it there does just that.

edited 28th Nov '13 9:41:54 AM by Odd1

Insert witty 'n clever quip here.

If we move the thread to Covens, by all means zap the one I started. Like I said, it was just a failsafe.

"I'm not a nerd. I'm a specialist." ~Sousuke Sagara

@Egregious One

I'm not saying we have to go back to the original Just For Fun articles; I'm presenting it as an option for matching the topic and the thread usage, though it looks likely that this option doesn't have support.

A simple derail lasting a few pages is fine in Yack Fest, but when it persists for this long and the talk can be accommodated in other existing threads, you have to wonder if it's run its course. The OP of our discussion here hinted the lack of a topic makes the thread vulnerable to overly broad scope of talk. So the drama can be prevented if the subject of the drama doesn't belong there. If we still get drama later after the topic is well defined, then we can consider other measures.

We need a crowner because I don't see an agreement reached among the regulars there, so we can't take any action. I thought that once the news reached the Shipping thread, the people there would vote on what to do. But they're still talking as always as if nothing has happened. If the people there don't want the decision made by outsiders, then they need to demonstrate that they care.

What we should have done was put up a header announcement there two days ago, directing people to this discussion and formally asking for a vote. We can do that now.

edited 28th Nov '13 9:52:45 AM by Trivialis

Persistence should point to a reason for the thread to continue; we could simply ax it if it happened to die out with time. The talk cannot be accommodated in other threads. The Shipping Thread has not yet run its course, as the current high rate of posting should indicate. Drama was never conclusively attributed to either topic or conduct, though putting some rules in place to allow a certain number of conscientious objectors to end a controversial line of thought would take care of this problem either way.

I expected the same; perhaps most of the regulars figured their side was already accounted for? I couldn't really say. Still, it's not fair to say that they're still talking as if nothing had happened; there have been numerous references to this discussion, and more importantly there's been a sharp decrease in drama.

...that actually would've been a sound thing to do. XD Ah well; hindsight. I say we leave things quiet over Thanksgiving, announce a crowner on 29 November, and vote on 1 December.

"I'm not a nerd. I'm a specialist." ~Sousuke Sagara

And why is that?

This is why offsite split similar to IJBM has been proposed. Your posts indicate that you care more about the people than a particular discussion topic.

I don't know what the regulars there think. They need to speak up about which option they want and be visible about it.

Any reason why we can't set up the crowner and header now and then let it run for several days? That topic has been vibrant the whole week; no need to keep pushing it off.

I've said about all I can to convince you; if you still don't believe me, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this particular point. You know my arguments, I know yours.

Agreed.

Yes; Thanksgiving is dramatic enough without bringing this ugly matter into it.

"I'm not a nerd. I'm a specialist." ~Sousuke Sagara

okay, ignore my suggestions and arguments

Insert witty 'n clever quip here.

@Trivialis Today's a bad day to put in a crowner.

edited 28th Nov '13 10:15:54 AM by ramuf

Odd: Apologies for not addressing you directly; I felt like I incorporated your points in my reply.

"I'm not a nerd. I'm a specialist." ~Sousuke Sagara

x4 You're going to have to sum up your argument because I want to comment on it.

Is it the unique group of friends you have there? I don't see the need. The group isn't a closed identity; that thread is supposed to be open to anyone in Yack Fest. The same chat can be held in other chat threads. The thread's lacking a topic that makes it necessary. Yet you're insisting that it's the people that are important, not a defined topic.

But if you really consider the people paramount, why not consider an offshoot place? If all you guys need is each other, then the place or title shouldn't matter. You just want some place to chat with the friends you made. But you don't like that either.

It's like no matter what solution is proposed, there's been resistance to adopting it, which is starting to frustrate some of us here. There's a lack of action and pushing things off isn't helping. You're essentially proposing that there is no problem and no need for a solution, and this 21-page discussion here has been pointless.

edited 28th Nov '13 10:21:15 AM by Trivialis

Chemistry. You can't reduce the chemistry of a conversation down to one particular factor. At any rate, the burden of proof ought to be on the one proposing an unwanted change: It has been well-established that there is no thread on this site that must exist. It has been well-established that there is no conversation in any thread on this site that cannot be carried out in another thread from a purely functional perspective. It has been well-established that said conversations take place in their designated threads for extra-functional reasons varying by thread. Yes, the thread is disposable. Yes, the conversation could theoretically carry on in another thread. I'm confused as to why it's so important to you that the conversation continue elsewhere; if you're not objecting to the conversation itself, what exactly is the problem? Note my emphasis on "theoretically"; in practice, the conversation would not continue, because the unique chemistry of the Shipping Thread would have been dispelled.

Don't complain about something you don't have to deal with. XD You have a vested interest in pursuing this conversation because you would like to have the Shipping Thread closed; if the return is no longer worth the effort, then you are perfectly free to cease your efforts and pursue something you consider more worthwhile.

I'm not terribly keen on the lack of a conclusive decision either, but that's the game we're playing. The mods have largely left us to our own devices, probably waiting for a resounding conclusion. Without the mods, we're toothless. Prompt action is an unreasonable expectation; the mods are busy enough as it is without herding us through a simple disagreement.

I am not proposing that there is no problem, nor that there is no need for a solution. I proposed a three-point solution a bit higher up, remember; I have yet to hear a rebuttal against it. And I would not be spending my time here if I didn't feel that there was a problem to be solved. I am claiming that the mere existence of this discussion has already done the thread a lot of good, but there is still more to be done.

"I'm not a nerd. I'm a specialist." ~Sousuke Sagara

I've already replied to you on that point here. A thread "must exist" if it establishes a particular place for a particular topic. We sort different topics of conversation into different categories and forums and threads, and Madrugada has pointed out that there's the issue of not having a distinguished topic. Comparing two different topics is not the same as comparing two nearly identical topics and pointing out a redundancy.

I don't want to necessarily see the thread closed, but I do want some kind of action. The concern is people resisting change just because they like the way things are. Yes, the chemistry of that particular thread is nice, but does that necessitate it the way it is now? Threads have been merged or relocated before due to cleanup, efficiency and organizing.

It's possible to have had duplicates of more defined threads and found the duplicates to be nice, but we could still clean it up, particularly if the redundancy leads to other complications.

You may have proposed a workable solution, but I can't say you speak for the regulars in that thread. In order for mods to act upon the discussion here, there needs to be a consensus from the people that are affected by whatever change that's going to happen.

I really don't see the need to wait for starting a vote of some kind when that's the first step. I'm not saying we need a swift deadline on ending the vote, but there's no harm in starting the vote. Delaying the start doesn't accomplish anything.

edited 28th Nov '13 11:25:17 AM by Trivialis

Yes, you've addressed my arguments, as I've addressed yours. Like I said, I believe that this is one point you and I are simply not going to agree on. You've expressed that we're doing a lot of talking and achieving little in the way of results. I share your complaint, and I'm trying to alleviate that by removing this issue from discussion. I believe that further deliberation on the matter of the Shipping Thread's necessity would be unproductive.

If things are better as they are than they would be under any options proposed, then resisting change is a perfectly rational decision. I want action as well; I'm not satisfied with the current situation either. No, the chemistry of the thread does not justify resisting all change on principle; absolutely not. It does justify opposition against solutions that involve closing the thread, but it does not justify opposition against moving, merging, or altering the thread. This is precisely why I oppose closing the thread, but advocate moving and altering it.

So you do not oppose the three-point solution I proposed? Would I be jumping to conclusions or misrepresenting your position by saying that?

I certainly don't speak for the regulars, you are correct. You are also correct in claiming that we'll need some sort of consensus from the regulars themselves. The assumption I've been working with is that those invested enough in the decision to take part in it (the contributors to this thread) must come up with a set of viable, clearly defined options first, and then present those options to the thread regulars for a decision. If you and I were to personally agree on a particular course of action, I'd say the next step would be to approach the Shipping Thread.

"I'm not a nerd. I'm a specialist." ~Sousuke Sagara

I haven't seen it.

I'm saying that a thread being unnecessary due to redundancy does not imply that any given thread is unnecessary.

I find the option acceptable, I guess. Honestly, my position on this matter has shifted over time after finding out the origins of the thread, so I'm a bit confused as to what I would have thought of it back then.

If I were to start a crowner, this would be the gist of the options:

• Define what it means by "Troper Shipping and Troper Dating Service". Explain the topic in the OP and enforce it.
• Change the outdated thread title/topic. Find a way to justify keeping the topic despite the existence of similar threads. Move to Covens if necessary.
• Consider moving the chat to a place where the participants can talk freely without any obligation towards the current topic, and instead the emphasis is on the social aspect of the people there.

edited 28th Nov '13 11:48:04 AM by Trivialis

This is obvious. It is also irrelevant, because the alleged redundancy of the Shipping Thread hinges on the alleged chemistry of the Shipping Thread. This line of inquiry is an exercise in futility.

Now we're talking!

May I reword your proposed options for clarity?

• 1) Commit the Shipping Thread to follow its original intent as outlined by the original post. This includes defining what the original intent actually was, as well as enforcing it by sanctioning against any deviations from the topic.
• 2) Redefine the purpose of the Shipping Thread to match its current properties.
  • 2a) Narrow the focus of the Shipping Thread to make it functionally distinct from similar conversation threads in Yack Fest.
  • 2b) Repurpose the Shipping Thread as a Shipping Coven and move it to the Covens section. Zap the current Shipping Coven first, in order to preserve the record of the Shipping Thread.

I have two reservations about your third option. First, I believe my rewording of Option B subsumes the essential purposes of your third option. Second, the only unique property of your third option I am able to identify is that it allows for the possibility of closing the Shipping Thread entirely; I strongly oppose this, and even if we are to propose it to the Shipping Thread, I will insist on explicitly naming closing the thread as an option, so as to remove all doubt of underhanded dealings.

"I'm not a nerd. I'm a specialist." ~Sousuke Sagara

It looks like no one really cares about the original topic, but I'm including it for completeness. The first option doesn't have to be what it was, the passing remark about Just For Fun articles. But it would be about what it sounds like - the thread itself would be the "dating service".

Likewise, the third option is listed for sake of summary. It's under the assumption that the bond between friends is what's important and the people wouldn't mind continue chatting in another place. It also doesn't have to be the only option; interested people can still make an offsite place if the thread is kept somehow, and it doesn't have to be official affiliate of TV Tropes, either.

I would agree with that assessment; might as well throw it in as a choice, though.

Here's the thing. XD I'm certainly not going to deny that the bond between friends is important. I just don't understand why acknowledging it necessitates demolishing said friends' preferred hangout. To address the last bit: people are already capable of starting offsite surrogates if they want to, regardless of what we decide here (and I'd say it's telling that nobody has, in this instance). Therefore I don't see much of a point in voting on it. If I were so inclined, I could start an IRC somewhere and announce it in the Shipping Thread without anyone else's approval. So could anybody else. This seems to be what people think I was doing in starting the Coven. Consider how that turned out.

Anyway. TLDR: I can accept the inclusion of closing the thread as an option, but I want it to be explicit. Like "The Shipping Thread will be permanently locked.". Little else needs to be said, because what the regulars will do after that is their own affair, on an individual basis.

"I'm not a nerd. I'm a specialist." ~Sousuke Sagara

I have yet to see what moving it offsite accomplishes. It just makes it more distant for participants.

What I do see that'll work is a header that outlines the rules. This has worked pretty well for many threads before, so I can't see it as a bad solution now. It's been really devoid of drama outside of politics, which is already knowingly banned... but needs the header to make sure everybody knows it for sure.

...It's weird having so many websites and no way to properly display now, lol.

Yes...I'd say that no matter which option we end up choosing, there needs to be a header post along those lines.

"I'm not a nerd. I'm a specialist." ~Sousuke Sagara