Trans-Pacific Partnership and Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

tl;dr If we lose, we're not locked in forever like we have initially feared.

So if the worst fears (borderline corporate sovereignty and really nasty copyright stuff) are realized, elections can happen and the new government can go "ha, no" and just drop out?

Sounds solid to me.

What about trafficking? Is the TPP still weak on anti-slavery stuff?

What people support is a pretty standard yardstick for their morality. I haven't seen anyone being called a psychopath in this thread though, have you?

"If you're not with us, you're against us!"

edited 6th Nov '15 9:09:47 PM by manhandled

Why, do you think this is worse than other politically polarising issues?

(Vox, Ezra Klein) The Business Tribunals aren't what you think they are:

They're actually a means for businesses to enter developing countries with crooked judiciaries or populist governments and feel like they won't screwed over.

The idea is that if leaders of countries know their government/courts are weak and corrupt, but they want businesses to come in and help feed modernization and profits into the country, that this gives companies an aegis to protect themselves from hostile claims.

No ISDS case has ever been won against the United States.

edited 10th Nov '15 11:27:14 AM by PotatoesRock

So basically they exist to protect against corruption or expropriation, but corporations sometimes try to use them to fuck with legitimate laws as well?

Yes, like the Australian Smoking thing, but I think that got tossed out ultimately?

But yeah, the chief reason ISDS arbitration exists is to avoid corrupt kangaroo courts in developing nations that lack first world rule of law, but whose leaders want foreign investment to pull the country up from being a mudpit, relatively speaking.

edited 10th Nov '15 11:38:29 PM by PotatoesRock

I find that funny considering ISDS is a corrupt Kangaroo Court.

edited 11th Nov '15 5:03:18 AM by Psyga315

Which is one of the reasons the TTIP is bogged down. The Germans want it to be an independent entity with actual judges and the US doesn't.

In the case of the TPP, I suspect it's designed to keep China in check.

edited 11th Nov '15 5:21:07 AM by TerminusEst

I suspect another reason is that the Americans don't want to become "Europeanised", by allowing the EU too much influence over TTIP.

And yet, most opposers of TTIP here feel that the EU is becoming too 'Americanized' (because unhealthy, heart attack-inducing food and other stuff). A bit ironic, if you ask me.

edited 11th Nov '15 1:54:33 PM by Quag15

Well, TPP is just one step closer to realization.

I'm now back to panicking because of all the horror stories I read of TPP and all the doomsayers. I really hope the government is not stupid and are willing to acknowledge the flaws it has. With everyone and their mother praising TPP like it's a Godsend, the stuff like it being SOPA 2.0 or the possibility racking up the medicine prices (something that actually has made recent news) are quietly ignored.

If the government can't recognize that the shit that's going on with Canada suing America for fifteen bil over rejecting their Keystone deal can literally repeat with TPP, then they are probably making the stupidest decision in the history of man.

Signing doesn't mean much, it happened with ACTA, but the big thing is ratification. ACTA crashed and burned when the European Parliament decided to reject it despite the best efforts of the European Commission.

TPP has similar problems in the US. Any debate won't happen till after the elections because the Republicans don't want to make it a problem for certain vulnerable congresspeople and senators, and many front-runners on both sides of the partisan divide hate it, including Hilary, Sanders, and Trump. The Democrats are mostly opposed, the Republicans are divided. But if the Republicans refuse to debate it until after the election, if a president who doesn't like the TPP is elected, the whole thing is dead in the water.

edited 22nd Jan '16 6:19:04 AM by Cronosonic

How much does Hillary hate it though? Obama isn't that negative on a lot of this stuff and Hillary is more in with big business then he is.

Also what's the leadership like in Congress? Paul Ryan is presumably still going to en speaker, I assume he's in favour of it? In the Senate I assume that Mc Connell back it? If the Dems take the Senate who is looking to be majority leader then? Reid is standing down after all, even if the Dems don't take the Senate the opinion of the minority leader could be mighty important.

Also post election there's the gap before the new Congress and President take over, could things be pushed though in that gap by a lame duck Congress with nothing left to loose?

also, if TPP does go through it would fuck up the cosplay scene as cosplayers would be in breach of copyright, and copyright holders have proven themselves willing to sue over the most petty things time and time again

Hey? You know what sucks? Police been given riot training for the next protest in New Zealand. This being one of the few countries in the world which is usually peaceful about everything and doesn't need this shit.

Some holders are bad but most aren't that bad, keep in mind that almost anything can breach copyright, forum avatars even, but companies don't sue over them.

that's cos they don't have a legal leg to stand on in that case, TPP would give them the legal authority to sue in all signed up nations, it's basically an international SOPA/PIPA on steroids

The moment that happens, everyone will be in so much debt that they will wonder why they even made TPP in the first place, since, again, corporate snakes can sue, but countries can't.

Assuming they'll survive with a sudden dive in their consumer base thanks to drug prices hiking up to $750 and thus culling people who are poor to afford life saving medicine.

x4

Riot/Crowd control training isn't part of basic training over there?

edited 22nd Jan '16 8:14:11 AM by TerminusEst

You know what we had at the last three protests? Normal policemen. Yeah, just fat guys following us around in fluorescent vests ready to report something in the situation that the crowd gets violent. And the crowd never does. Kiwis like it that way.

WHAT!?!? you mean you don't do the Haka and then charge police lines?

Yeah. Most people also don't realize that we don't have Hobbits and sheep running around the streets where the city cars are. NZ is a lot more user friendly than some would think.

So, with less than two weeks left before our governments sign away our rights to our new corporate overlords, it's a good time to flood your country's international trade minister with your displeasure over the TPP. Make it absolutely clear that if they claim to represent your interests, they must refuse it.

Tell them that Chapter 11 takes away our right to make financial protection laws so we don't suffer another meltdown; that Chapter 13 lets companies move data freely from country to country to hide it from authorities; that Chapter 14 does nothing to adequately protect customers' personal information; that Chapter 15 undermines state, provincial, and municipal governments' ability to legislate; that Chapter 18 will destroy the notion of public domain and fair use, muzzle critics and journalists, and destroy domain registration privacy; Chapter 19 will cripple the working class and allows corporations to freely abuse their employees; that Chapter 20 puts corporate profits ahead of environmental protection; that Chapter 24 spits in the face of small- and medium-sized business owners by giving them everything the corporations get except access to the ISDS; and Chapter 28 puts interpretations of our laws in the hands of unaccountable private tribunals and lawyers.