What Defines An Arch Enemy?

So in you're honest opinion what is it that separates this person from everyone else in the Rogues Gallery? What qualities would they have to have or what would their relationship with the hero have to be like? If you want you could type up an example of one to further your point or maybe just your personal favourite.

They make the best Foil to make each nemesis shine.

To me, there's two main types of archenemies. The first is the complete opposite of the hero, representing everything they stand against. Superman represents born power used for the good of mankind. Lex Luthor represents hardearned power used for himself. Batman represents firm, ultra-serious order. Joker represents colorful, completely non-nonsensical chaos. Even in Marvel, you have Captain America, who represents the essence of what America should be, and then you have the Red Skull, who is basically the Nazi of Nazi's. That's the oldest, most classic type of archenemy, and it's the one that most people probably associate with the concept.

Theeeeeeeeen there's the other type of archenemy. The type that just ef's up the hero's life real good. Take Spiderman and the Green Goblin. There's a reason that Gobby is the Spidey's archenemy, but it's not because he's his opposite. Or at least, I don't think he truly is. No, Gobby is Spidey's archenemy because Gobby threw Spidey's girlfriend off a bridge. He messed with the hero not just in terms of your general hero/villain shenanigans, but instead, he messed with the hero on a personal level, and ever since, it's just been one big family feud between the Goblin and the Wallcrawler. Another example could be Ultron to the Avengers. He was created by one of them, and would go on to not only be one of their most persistent, reoccurring threats, with only Kang coming close, but, time and again, he would mess with Hank or his extended family personally, one way or another.

That's my thoughts on the subject, and I think it holds up.

edited 20th Aug '13 12:47:47 PM by kkhohoho

Some are both like Zoom and the Flash.

I know. Another one in that mold that comes to mind is Loki. Thor is strong, mighty, brave, and decently virtuous, but is of average intellect. Whereas Loki is cunning and clever, but also immoral, deceitful, and relies not on bulldozing his enemies, but through skilled sorcery. He's also Thor's adopted brother, and hates his father, Odin, for killing Loki's parents when he was a child. You add that to Loki's natural character, and you have a recipe for an archenemy that's both an opposite to the hero, as well as personal to the hero.

Does Evil Counterpart count as a third kind?

edited 21st Aug '13 1:02:08 PM by Imoo57

Also there seems to be that there are a few members of the Rogues Gallery that come close to that title but one trumps the others. Or at least the editors of the Arch-Enemy page like to treat it as a contest so I'm not sure.

edited 21st Aug '13 1:07:38 PM by Imoo57

I'd just define archenemy as the best or most prominent villain in the rouges gallery. There are features that can make a certain villain more compelling than others, idealogicaly challenging the hero, having similarities to the hero, being immune in some way to the hero's method of dealing with villains. But I don't think Amy of them are required.

I also think a hero can have a disputed archenemy, or have them change over the years. Think of Spider-Man, Doc Ock was probably the most threatening over the Ditko years, then the Green Goblin became a more personal threat, then he died, Ock got overused, Hobgoblin appeared...

@kkhohoho: doesn't Joker also count as "both opposite and personal"? killing one of the Robins and paralyzing Batgirl certainly sounds personal to me.

Certainly. But he was Bat's opposite long before it got personal.

Two words: Public perception.

...And what causes public perception? The same sorts of things I talked about.

What about X-Factor's archenemies? Charon and the Chalkers Family!

That the guys who got brought back from the dead to fight X-Factor as they had all died burning with vengenace ? :) Love those guys. Propellers for hands. Awesome

Greatest archenemies ever. X-Factor was so scared they forgot the guys even existed. Or they would've if they'd ever actually met them.

They were the only X-Factor villains who didn't think they were fighting X-Force.

Eh, I'll always think of X-Factor as the original team, so Apocalypse will be their arch-enemy for all time to me.

On a somewhat similar note, how can a hero have more than one archenemy?

Batman, Superman and Green Lantern all have at least two (Batman - Joker and Ra's Al Ghul, Superman - Lex Luthor and Braniac, Green Lantern - Sinestro and Star Sapphire)

And Spiderman has at least three (Venom, Doctor Octopus and the Green Goblin)

So i ask again, how can someone have more than one archenemy if the archenemy is supposed to be their greatest enemy of all?

Because defining it in such absolute terms invites debate - and those heroes have more strong candidates than other heroes.

"great" can mean a lot of things when it comes to comic book villain. for example, Spidey's rogues that you listed. each one is dangerous to the him for a different reason:

• Venom has all of Spidey's powers, is a dead zone to his Spider-Sense, and he knows his secret identity.
• Ock is, for all intents and purposes, smarter than Peter and he learns from his mistakes, so Spidey can't use the same trick on him twice.
• GG has dealt a personal blow to Spidey, and no matter how hard Parker puts him down, he'll always be back to mess with him.

edited 9th Sep '13 7:01:38 AM by crimsonstorm15

For me to really consider a character to be an archnemesis, he needs to resonate with the character himself, and not just the mask. I can't see Ock as Spidey's arch for the same reason as the Kingpin: there is no personal touch. Ultimately, they're enemies who never see each other outside of work.

Norman Osborn and Venom both do more than just challenge Spider-Man; they are both involved with Peter's life and history. For Ock, even this body change has nothing to do with Peter; he does not have two shits to give about Peter Parker. He's only in it for Spider-Man.

A lot or arches fall flat for me because they effectively boil down to who is the most famous guy my hero has fought. For example, Justin Hammer bankrupted Tony Stark and caused him to spiral into depression and alcoholism in one of the most famous Iron Man storylines, but the Mandarin is his arch because the Mandarin looks cool and has awesome powers. In the modern sense, the archenemy is just whoever has made the most appearances.

Arch-enemies (or just any kind of good signature villain) have to echo the hero in some way, provide some kind of cracked reflection of him/her. I think people make too much over the "brains vs braun" and "inherent power vs self-made power" aspects of the Superman/Luthor dichotomy (and one could make the argument that Luthor's super-genius is every bit as much a super-power as anything Superman's got). Regardless of what kind of power Luthor has, he's a gifted individual who has used his gifts for personal gain and to dominate others, which is the opposite of what Superman does with HIS gifts. All of Spider-Man's best villains have received power through some kind of accident and then proceeded to use it irresponsibly. Batman's best villains have undergone some kind of personal, scarring tragedy and then used that tragedy as an excuse to lash out at the world.

If anything, the reasons Ock is an archenemy are because of the parallels, the things Superior is pointing out. They both are based on eight-legged animals, both are geniuses, but have vastly different opinions and personalities, which influence their choices. That, and he's iconic, and was a huge deal back in the day. He unmasked Spider-Man. He formed the Sinister Six.

And most importantly, he killed Spider-Man. If he didn't qualify before, he sure as heck does now.

Eh, I still don't consider him an archenemy. If he gets to keep what he's learned about Peter, then he'll be in good standing to potentially gain archenemy status, but right now, it's still all about Spider-Man. He's a spectacular nemesis for Spider-Man, but he has no connection to Peter Parker whatsoever. Even killing Spider-Man and taking his life has been all about Spider-Man.

Ock is the Black Cat of nemeses. He's exciting and dangerous and fun, but all of his interest ends at the mask. He's no more a personal challenge to Peter Parker, the man, than Carnage or Shocker is.

edited 10th Sep '13 1:07:24 PM by TobiasDrake

So, Joker isn't Batman's archenemy because he doesn't know who he is? Lex Luthor isn't Superman's greatest foe because Luthor usually doesn't target poor old Clark Cent?

The point here is that many archenemy's don't know their hero's S.ID. And yet, by your logic, that would mean that most archenemies are not archenemies. Or am I missing something here?