Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
The Clifford's Tower massacre of 1190 in York (which was a bit broader than that in the end). By today's numbers, it was tiny. By the number of lives in York at the time... hard to gauge. But, bigger.
It's the knock-on effects that are important.
I think the word we're looking for is pogrom.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.Nah, that's when a race riot turns lethal. This one was just injuries and property damage.
What's precedent ever done for us?Lac: Use a better example from the start. It also isn't pedantry or academic to point out the facts of an event especially when your openly using it to make a point.
edited 14th Oct '17 6:17:35 AM by TuefelHundenIV
Who watches the watchmen?Tulsa was lethal, though, as was York.
You know, I'm always amazed at how entire mobs can form, foam, and froth forth when it's an Other who is merely accused of rape, while when it's a "respected member of the community", it's downplayed, denied, or outright ignored, when it isn't the woman who ends up punished.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.That's because the women are seen as property of "our" tribe. Someone of "us" raping them is fair use. Someone else doing so is akin to trespassing.
Handle: Mobs are not exactly known to be intelligent or reasoning but sure as hell are hair trigger reactive.
Who watches the watchmen?I recomend you again Note about Nationalism of orwell, he talk about the tribalism effect end with "thing are bad not because they are bad but because it happen to us, fuck the rest" is what happen when you sink your identity in any group.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Israel, US race to prevent publication of UN settlement 'blacklist' note
edited 26th Nov '17 3:34:02 PM by CenturyEye
Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our livesHow boringly predictable of those two governments. I feverently hope that the blacklist in question does get published, BTW.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.Aw, man, just let the list get published and rip the Band-Aid, will ya?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.Hell if Israel and the US what to fight fire with fire I’d be fine with that, publish their own lists of companies that assist/profit from human rights violations in other countries (or even specifically in the countries that are on the human rights council).
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ CyranHolding companies accountable for human rights abuses is also a "next frontier" of human rights advocates as well. Publishing that list could set a very useful precedent, and the fight fire with fire thing might end up being the best outcome.
Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our livesPlease, do, that's an awesome idea, even if it's Right for the Wrong Reasons.
1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KVand YES.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.Sure, why not? It will make everyone think twice about violating human rights willy-nilly, hopefully.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.The problem with that list isn't that it targets companies that violate human rights; the problem is that there will be no global list, and so once again it's just another thing to put on the heads of the evil, evil Jews.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the groundWhataboutery and derailment. "We did a bad, but why are we being singled out? What about all the other people who do bads? It's because you're antisemites! So we don't have to listen to anything you say or question anything we do!"
edited 28th Nov '17 9:00:37 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.It's not so much whataboutism as "the UNHRC *does* single out Israel and this is another example; maybe, just maybe, there's an ulterior motive here?"
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the groundLets be honest, the people who blame the Jews always blame the Jews, even the derailment. So it doesn't matter if the list gets published or not, they still get a victory by making everybody involved look bad.
edited 28th Nov '17 10:29:05 AM by TerminusEst
Si Vis Pacem, Para PerkeleX4 There won’t be a global list as long as nobody makes it, but the Israeli government is perfectly capable of drawing up such a list and publishing it.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ CyranTrue, but you'd think that'd be the responsibility of the UN — an international, global body — over any other government's, won't you?
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the groundYou would, and the Israeli government would be perfectly in the right to point out the gross hypocrisy of the UN Humans Rights Council not giving a dam about humans right violations being committed by nations other that Israel.
It might even be in the right to argue that the UN Human Rights Council is unfit for purpose if it’s willing to ignore such gross and open violations of human rights.
But it has to be about the cases that the council are ignoring, it has to be about when the council refuses to do its job, not when it once in a blue moon decides to do its job for terrible reasons.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ CyranYeah but it would be nice once in a while having them go after companies don't have ties with Israel, whether they are owned by an Israeli or they operate in Israeli territory.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Well, if you're going to get pedantic, there's always the Atlanta and Omaha riots.
What's precedent ever done for us?