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Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.

At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.

So, let's start off:

At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.

The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".

Key issues of the talks:

  • Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.

  • Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

  • Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.

So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.

Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:

edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#12476: Oct 14th 2017 at 1:56:51 AM

Well, if you're going to get pedantic, there's always the Atlanta and Omaha riots.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#12477: Oct 14th 2017 at 2:22:17 AM

[up]The Clifford's Tower massacre of 1190 in York (which was a bit broader than that in the end). By today's numbers, it was tiny. By the number of lives in York at the time... hard to gauge. But, bigger.

It's the knock-on effects that are important.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12478: Oct 14th 2017 at 5:41:28 AM

I think the word we're looking for is pogrom.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#12479: Oct 14th 2017 at 5:47:42 AM

Nah, that's when a race riot turns lethal. This one was just injuries and property damage.

What's precedent ever done for us?
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apacalypse. from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
#12480: Oct 14th 2017 at 6:14:23 AM

Lac: Use a better example from the start. It also isn't pedantry or academic to point out the facts of an event especially when your openly using it to make a point.

edited 14th Oct '17 6:17:35 AM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12481: Oct 14th 2017 at 7:29:10 AM

[up][up]Tulsa was lethal, though, as was York.

You know, I'm always amazed at how entire mobs can form, foam, and froth forth when it's an Other who is merely accused of rape, while when it's a "respected member of the community", it's downplayed, denied, or outright ignored, when it isn't the woman who ends up punished.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#12482: Oct 14th 2017 at 7:32:07 AM

That's because the women are seen as property of "our" tribe. Someone of "us" raping them is fair use. Someone else doing so is akin to trespassing.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apacalypse. from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
#12483: Oct 14th 2017 at 7:44:03 AM

Handle: Mobs are not exactly known to be intelligent or reasoning but sure as hell are hair trigger reactive.

Who watches the watchmen?
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#12484: Oct 15th 2017 at 10:31:24 AM

[up][up][up]I recomend you again Note about Nationalism of orwell, he talk about the tribalism effect end with "thing are bad not because they are bad but because it happen to us, fuck the rest" is what happen when you sink your identity in any group.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#12485: Nov 26th 2017 at 3:33:33 PM

Israel, US race to prevent publication of UN settlement 'blacklist' note 

Weeks ahead of the expected completion of a U.N. database of companies that operate in Israel's West Bank settlements, Israel and the Trump Administration are working feverishly to prevent its publication.

While Israel is usually quick to brush off U.N. criticism, officials say they are taking the so-called "blacklist" seriously, fearing its publication could have devastating consequences by driving companies away, deterring others from coming and prompting investors to dump shares of Israeli firms. Dozens of major Israeli companies, as well as multinationals that do business in Israel, are expected to appear on the list.

"We will do everything we can to ensure that this list does not see the light of day," Israel's U.N. ambassador, Danny Danon, told The Associated Press.

The U.N.'s top human rights body, the Human Rights Council, ordered the compilation of the database in March 2016, calling on U.N. rights chief Zeid Ra'ad al-Hussein to "investigate the implications of the Israeli settlements on Palestinians."

The international community overwhelmingly considers the settlements, built on occupied land claimed by the Palestinians for a future state, to be illegal. Israel rejects such claims, citing the land's strategic and religious significance, and says the matter should be resolved in negotiations.

Israeli officials say that about 100 local companies that operate in the West Bank and east Jerusalem have received warning letters that they will be on the list. In addition, some 50 international companies, mostly American and European, also have been warned.

The companies have not been publicly identified, but one official said they include Israeli banks, supermarkets, restaurant chains, bus lines and security firms, as well as international giants that provide equipment or services used to build or maintain settlements. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the matter with the media.

The only company to confirm receiving a warning letter has been Bezeq, Israel's national telephone company. Bezeq's chief executive, Stella Handler, posted a copy of the letter sent by Zeid's office in September on her Facebook page. It accused Bezeq of using West Bank land for infrastructure, providing phone and Internet services to settlements and operating sales offices in the West Bank and east Jerusalem.

Handler angrily wrote that Bezeq provides service to all customers, regardless of race or where they live.

"The council's bias against Israel is so extreme that it has lost all relevance in the world," she wrote. "We will not cooperate with a move that is all in all anti-Israeli propaganda."

But hours later, Handler removed the post, saying she had done so at the request of the government. The Israeli official confirmed the government has asked companies not to speak about the issue. Bezeq declined comment.

Israel has long accused the United Nations, and particularly the rights council, of being biased against it.

Israel is the only country that faces an examination of its rights record at each of the council's three sessions each year. Some 70 resolutions, or about quarter of the council's country-specific resolutions, have been aimed at Israel. That is nearly triple the number for the second-place country: Syria, where hundreds of thousands have been killed in a devastating six-year civil war.

Israeli leaders and many non-governmental groups also complain that some of the world's worst violators of human rights, including Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Congo and Cuba, sit on the council.

Some Western diplomats have said the database could set a harmful precedent by blurring the line between business and human rights on issues that are better left to trade policy than the Geneva council.

Israel seems to have little leverage over the council. But its campaign has received a big boost from the United States. The Trump administration has taken a tough line against the U.N., demanding reforms and in October, withdrawing from the cultural agency UNESCO because of alleged anti-Israel bias.

In a speech to the council last June, U.S. Ambassador Nikki Haley railed against its makeup and demanded that Israel be removed as a permanent fixture on its agenda. She also hinted that the U.S. could quit the council.

The upcoming release of the database could test that commitment. It has triggered a quiet, but high-stakes effort by Israel and the U.S. to try to block its release.

"We just view that type of blacklist as counterproductive," State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert said recently.

Danon, the Israeli ambassador, accused the council of unfairly targeting Israel at a time of conflict throughout the world, saying it amounted to a "blacklist" of Jewish companies and those who do business with the Jewish state.

He also said it would turn the rights council into "the world's biggest promoter of BDS," an acronym for the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement - a grassroots international boycott movement against Israel. Most of the companies linked to the blacklist are frequent targets of the BDS movement.

"What kind of message will this send?" Dannon said.

But Nabil Shaath, a senior Palestinian official, said the list is an "important step" moving from verbal condemnation to practical action against the settlements. He expressed hope that it would lead companies to stop doing business with the settlements and even lead to sanctions against those that continue.

The original resolution calling for the list stipulates only that the council's high commissioner is requested "to transmit the data therein in the form of a report" to the council.

To that end, Israel and its allies have been encouraging the council to leave the list out and submit only a basic, broad-strokes report that doesn't name names, according to several U.N. diplomats familiar with the discussions. The diplomats were not authorized to comment publicly and demanded anonymity.

The pressure campaign has shown some signs of success. After an earlier delay, Zeid's office said the release of the "report" has been pushed back again, from December to early next year.

For now, it does not appear that the list's publication would be the direct trigger that leads the U.S. to quit the council. Haley's office said it is focused on implementing reforms on the council, though publication of the list could make U.S. participation "less likely."

Eugene Kontorovich, the director of international law at the Kohelet Policy Forum, a conservative think tank in Jerusalem, said he was "deeply skeptical" the report will not be published and said the Israeli government would be better off trying to discredit the report ahead of time. "I think it's important for people to understand how bad this is," he said.

The resolution, he warned, would cause "reputational harm" to companies and put "a cloud over business in Israel." Although nonbinding, he said it could be used as a basis for future legal action. "The goal of this is to cause problems for Israel," he said.

edited 26th Nov '17 3:34:02 PM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#12486: Nov 26th 2017 at 3:38:30 PM

How boringly predictable of those two governments. I feverently hope that the blacklist in question does get published, BTW.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12487: Nov 26th 2017 at 3:43:34 PM

Aw, man, just let the list get published and rip the Band-Aid, will ya?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#12488: Nov 26th 2017 at 4:31:55 PM

Hell if Israel and the US what to fight fire with fire I’d be fine with that, publish their own lists of companies that assist/profit from human rights violations in other countries (or even specifically in the countries that are on the human rights council).

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#12489: Nov 26th 2017 at 4:41:19 PM

[up]Holding companies accountable for human rights abuses is also a "next frontier" of human rights advocates as well. Publishing that list could set a very useful precedent, and the fight fire with fire thing might end up being the best outcome.

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#12490: Nov 26th 2017 at 4:43:57 PM

[up][up]Please, do, that's an awesome idea, even if it's Right for the Wrong Reasons.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12491: Nov 26th 2017 at 4:44:53 PM

[up][up] and [up][up][up]YES.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#12492: Nov 27th 2017 at 5:57:03 AM

Sure, why not? It will make everyone think twice about violating human rights willy-nilly, hopefully.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#12493: Nov 28th 2017 at 7:22:53 AM

The problem with that list isn't that it targets companies that violate human rights; the problem is that there will be no global list, and so once again it's just another thing to put on the heads of the evil, evil Jews.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12494: Nov 28th 2017 at 8:54:00 AM

[up]Whataboutery and derailment. "We did a bad, but why are we being singled out? What about all the other people who do bads? It's because you're antisemites! So we don't have to listen to anything you say or question anything we do!"

edited 28th Nov '17 9:00:37 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#12495: Nov 28th 2017 at 10:15:03 AM

It's not so much whataboutism as "the UNHRC *does* single out Israel and this is another example; maybe, just maybe, there's an ulterior motive here?"

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#12496: Nov 28th 2017 at 10:27:54 AM

Lets be honest, the people who blame the Jews always blame the Jews, even the derailment. So it doesn't matter if the list gets published or not, they still get a victory by making everybody involved look bad.

edited 28th Nov '17 10:29:05 AM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#12497: Nov 28th 2017 at 12:58:53 PM

[up]X4 There won’t be a global list as long as nobody makes it, but the Israeli government is perfectly capable of drawing up such a list and publishing it.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#12498: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:13:12 PM

True, but you'd think that'd be the responsibility of the UN — an international, global body — over any other government's, won't you?

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#12499: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:23:05 PM

You would, and the Israeli government would be perfectly in the right to point out the gross hypocrisy of the UN Humans Rights Council not giving a dam about humans right violations being committed by nations other that Israel.

It might even be in the right to argue that the UN Human Rights Council is unfit for purpose if it’s willing to ignore such gross and open violations of human rights.

But it has to be about the cases that the council are ignoring, it has to be about when the council refuses to do its job, not when it once in a blue moon decides to do its job for terrible reasons.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#12500: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:31:22 PM

Yeah but it would be nice once in a while having them go after companies don't have ties with Israel, whether they are owned by an Israeli or they operate in Israeli territory.

Inter arma enim silent leges

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