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Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.

At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.

So, let's start off:

At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.

The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".

Key issues of the talks:

  • Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.

  • Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

  • Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.

So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.

Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:

edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#651: Mar 22nd 2014 at 7:18:51 AM

No, but from what I read of the guy on Wikipedia, I'm starting to like him. Sane and rational head on his shoulders, that's for certain.

(*snorts into tea)

Try Gilbert Achcar if you're looking for that persuasion. Radical knows my feelings on Noam.

edited 22nd Mar '14 7:19:04 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#652: Mar 22nd 2014 at 4:44:18 PM

I think he's starting to lose it in his old age, but he was right about, well, pretty much every topic he expounded on for three decades, and he still has Israel's number pretty clearly. But this is not the discussion about Noam Chomsky, and besides it's not clear if Marq was talking about Chomsky or Falk.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#653: Mar 22nd 2014 at 5:15:07 PM

Chomsky. Though I will note that I only gave his article a cursory look. What is it that some people seem to find objectionable about him?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#654: Mar 22nd 2014 at 6:22:09 PM

[up][up]

He was right about Vietnam, but so were plenty of other people. As a friend of mine recently observed on FB: if you criticize every damn thing America does you'll naturally be proven right when it does something genuinely stupid.

[up]

If you're really interested, PM me. As Radical says, this discussion isn't about him, and I regret not letting the reference slide.


Anyone have any thoughts on my "man-in-pub" analysis of Israeli conservatism in post 645?

edited 22nd Mar '14 6:22:29 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#655: Mar 22nd 2014 at 7:15:53 PM

I had similar thoughts many pages ago on this thread. Basically, Israel as an ethnic state is not peacefully sustainable.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#656: Mar 23rd 2014 at 6:48:20 AM

It probably has to do with the hard fact that the very concept of a homogeneous ethnically-based nation-state has been largely discredited by the second half of the last century, didn't it?

Tens of thousands of Hamas supporters have taken to the streets of Gaza City to commemorate the 10-year anniversary of the assassination of the group's spiritual leader in an Israeli airstrike.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#657: Mar 23rd 2014 at 3:30:08 PM

The Economist has a short article on Israel, religion and the draft

EVER since Esther disguised her Jewish roots to seduce the king of Persia more than 2,000 years ago, Jews have celebrated her deception once a year with the festival of Purim, not least by dressing up as their worst enemies. Favoured costumes of Israel's Haredim, or ultra-Orthodox Jews, have been the garb of Cossack horsemen, who once launched pogroms against them in eastern Europe. The enemy of choice this year might have been the Israeli army, but nervous rabbis pre-emptively banned anyone from dressing up in khaki uniforms.

A decision in Israel's parliament, the Knesset, to criminalise ultra-Orthodox Jews refusing to abide by Israel's military draft has brought relations between the country's 800,000 ultra-Orthodox Jews and the 5m others to their worst level since Israel was established in 1948. Anti-Zionist graffiti litters the Haredim's bastions in Jerusalem. Haredi protesters have replaced the silent middle Hebrew letter in Israel's name with another one, rendering it as Yesh-raal-"There's Poison". And earlier this month hundreds of thousands poured onto Jerusalem's main highway for a mass communal prayer-cum-protest, closing it to traffic for hours. "Let us study the Torah," they cried, mockingly asking how any Jewish state could prevent students from studying it. One ultra-Orthodox sect vowed that it would flee Israel if the authorities attempted to enforce the law. "We owe our survival to the Torah, not to squadrons of fighter-jets," said a protester.

For Yair Lapid, a standard-bearer of Israel's secular Jews, the Haredi conscription law is a crowning achievement. As finance minister and leader of Israel's second-largest party, he pushed through the bill by 67 votes to one on March 12th, with most of the opposition boycotting the session. His supporters, concentrated in the coastal metropolis around Tel Aviv, portrayed the ultra-Orthodox as welfare scroungers living off secular taxpayers who pay income tax and risk their lives in patriotic combat. "Share the netel," meaning the burden, is their battle-cry.

Fearful that Mr Lapid might take his 18 fellow parliamentarians out of the ruling coalition, thus toppling it, Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel's prime minister, rallied to his call. So too did Jewish Home, which as a party of religious Zionism values military service as well as Torah study.

Yet the generals want the ultra-Orthodox in their ranks no more than the ultra-Orthodox want to join up. Army recruitment centres are already struggling with a surfeit of brawn at a time when Israel's fighting machine is becoming increasingly automated, with drones rather than infantrymen to the fore. So some argue that if the government was really serious about integrating the ultra-Orthodox and rescuing them from poverty they would have done better to push them out of the proliferating Torah colleges and into jobs instead of uniforms.

Keep Rolling On
FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#658: Mar 23rd 2014 at 3:34:21 PM

[up]Or the civil service for that matter.

Also? Hooooo boy...

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#659: Mar 23rd 2014 at 3:44:48 PM

"We owe our survival to the Torah, not to squadrons of fighter-jets, " said a protester.

Am I a horrible person for snerking?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#660: Mar 23rd 2014 at 4:14:06 PM

I never thought I'd find a person this delusional in a Western(ized) country. I mean, even the most religious among non-fundamentalist practicing Muslims like me (and probably a lot of the saner/more rational fundamentalists, too) would only go as far as to say "We owe our victory to God, and then to our preparations/weapons/insert-mundane-reason-here"note .

edited 23rd Mar '14 4:15:10 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#661: Mar 23rd 2014 at 4:21:42 PM

In Mysterious Ways, huh?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#662: Mar 23rd 2014 at 6:49:08 PM

I am reminded of the scene in Kingdom of Heaven, where Saladin drily notes that Allah shows a distinct preference for awarding victory to the army that manages its supply lines well.

I never thought I'd find a person this delusional in a Western(ized) country.
You are clearly not following the US Politics thread.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#663: Mar 23rd 2014 at 7:11:01 PM

Even the tea party recognizes we win from military might and not (just) divine preference.

I'm baaaaaaack
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#664: Mar 23rd 2014 at 7:42:34 PM

The Tea Party, sadly, are not the limit of our lunatic fringe. You've also got the Christian Dominionists, the breakaway Mormons, and the people who blamed Katrina on the gays. BUT THAT'S OFF TOPIC.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#665: Mar 23rd 2014 at 7:49:57 PM

Drop 'em into Gaza City with their Torahs and let's see what would happen.

Much as i'm not a fan of the IDF, these guys just seem to be milking the system.

FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#666: Mar 23rd 2014 at 9:22:49 PM

To the defense of the haredi, they may have been referring to the faith rather than the nation.

Of course if they weren't, then God will sort them out in due course...

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#667: Mar 23rd 2014 at 9:29:53 PM

I keep hearing that He'll sort things out. His sorter must be backlogged like a motherfucker.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#668: Mar 24th 2014 at 3:03:42 AM

The end of God's fiscal year is the end of times, the inventory.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#669: Mar 24th 2014 at 5:17:19 AM

I am reminded of the scene in Kingdom of Heaven, where Saladin drily notes that Allah shows a distinct preference for awarding victory to the army that manages its supply lines well.
Which is actually true, at least in Islamic teachings. Several hadiths and, IIRC, passages from the Quran make a big deal about how God is not a crutch for lazy people to rely upon for every single thing; if you don't prepare to the best of your ability and knowledge, then God isn't responsible for whatever bad things that will happen to you because of your laziness.

/end derail

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#670: Mar 24th 2014 at 5:37:01 AM

"God(s) help(s) those who help themselves," is a bit of a universal caveat. In practice, the popular understanding seems to be, "If things go well, thank me, if they go wrong, blame yourself, or Satan."

edited 24th Mar '14 5:37:46 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#671: Mar 24th 2014 at 6:22:40 AM

Your foe is well-equipped, well-trained, battle-hardened. He believes his gods are on his side. Let him believe what he will. We have the tanks on ours.
Colonel Joachim Pfeiff, 14th Krieg Panzer Regiment, Warhammer 40,000

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#672: Mar 24th 2014 at 12:26:51 PM

@Radical Taoist - Not really the point of my comment. All I'm saying is that God tends to agree with Darwin on the treatment of fools.

EDIT-

Any news, before we veer off topic?

edited 24th Mar '14 12:27:31 PM by FFShinra

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#673: Mar 24th 2014 at 12:35:28 PM

[up] Here's some:

Foreign Ministry employees declared a general strike on Sunday, following two weeks of renewed sanctions. The strike is expected to close down the country’s foreign missions and totally paralyze the Israeli diplomatic system.

For the first time in the history of the State of Israel, 103 Israeli missions abroad will be completely closed for an indefinite period of time, as will the Foreign Ministry's headquarters in Jerusalem.

The strike was called in protest of the employment conditions of Israeli diplomats and the Finance Ministry's decision to cut their salaries over the renewed sanctions.

The Foreign Ministry's workers' union informed all employees in Israel and abroad by email and text messages that the general strike would begin at 3 P.M. on Sunday and instructed them to leave their workplaces immediately.

Foreign Ministry sources said that the missions abroad would be completely closed and that security officers were instructed to prevent entrance to all, including officials from the defense ministry, the Israel Defense Forces, the Mossad, Shin Bet security service and other government ministries.

The Jerusalem headquarters will be locked over the course of the strike and entry will be denied to Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, Deputy Foreign Minister Ze'ev Elkin and Director-General Nissim Ben-Sheetrit.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was forced last week to cancel what his office termed a "historic" visit to Latin America planned for April, after his bureau encountered many difficulties in making the necessary arrangements due to the diplomats’ sanctions, which include a blanket refusal to help cabinet ministers organize trips abroad.

The diplomats also refused to handle British Prime Minister David Cameron’s visit last week (though he came anyway), and are now refusing to cooperate on preparations for the pope’s visit to Israel in May. A Vatican delegation that was supposed to have visited Israel to work on the arrangements canceled its trip as a result, and it is now uncertain whether the pope’s visit will take place.

The diplomats have also stopped handling political appointments to ambassadorships, issuing diplomatic passports, transmitting diplomatic cables to intelligence and defense agencies, promoting economic and trade agreements and engaging in public diplomacy. Thus, for instance, Israeli missions abroad refused to disseminate any of the government’s talking points about the Iranian arms ship that Israel captured earlier this month, or to brief politicians and journalists in their host countries about it.

In addition, the diplomats have severed contact with UN institutions in New York, Geneva and Vienna, refusing even to attend Security Council debates or participate in votes. Consequently, Israel’s UN mission lodged no complaint with the UN sanctions committee on Iran over the capture of the Iranian arms ship, and without such a complaint, no international investigation can be opened on the matter.

edited 24th Mar '14 12:43:10 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#674: Mar 24th 2014 at 1:05:01 PM

What sanctions?

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#675: Mar 24th 2014 at 2:33:30 PM

[up]

I assume it means labor sanctions; ie union action regarding their treatment. From Greenie's post, it looks like everything in his third quoteblock; basically stopping doing anything except the bare minimum for their job - and now they've stopped doing even that.

Schild und Schwert der Partei

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