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Israel and Palestine:

 626 FF Shinra, Thu, 13th Mar '14 2:25:44 PM from Ivalice, apparently Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
[up][up]Damn. I was so close.sad
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
 627 Deviant Braeburn, Thu, 13th Mar '14 2:29:32 PM from Dysfunctional California
 628 The Handle, Thu, 13th Mar '14 2:30:44 PM from Barcelona Relationship Status: In love with love
The Shiv of Reason
Everyone thinks Mossad killed Arafat. Talk about Poisoning The Well.

edited 13th Mar '14 2:32:57 PM by TheHandle

People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it.
 629 Achaemenid, Thu, 13th Mar '14 2:43:12 PM from Mitakihara Town, Copenhagen Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Za naszą i waszą wolność
[up]

Or poisoning the Palestinian, as the case may be.
 630 Deviant Braeburn, Thu, 13th Mar '14 2:46:01 PM from Dysfunctional California
 631 The Handle, Thu, 13th Mar '14 2:52:25 PM from Barcelona Relationship Status: In love with love
The Shiv of Reason
There's an organization called Islamic Jihad? Isn't that a tad presumptuous?
People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it.
 632 Achaemenid, Thu, 13th Mar '14 2:54:31 PM from Mitakihara Town, Copenhagen Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Za naszą i waszą wolność
[up]

Well sure, but there's plenty like that. The Muslim Brotherhood do not speak for all Muslims. The endless "Workers" parties don't speak for all workers. The US Democrats do not speak for eveyone who believes in democracy.

Nobody is going to call their party: "Islam-According-To-Our-Rather-Narrow-Interpretation Jihad" tongue Try fitting that on a placard.
 633 The Handle, Thu, 13th Mar '14 2:58:21 PM from Barcelona Relationship Status: In love with love
The Shiv of Reason
To be fair, the Brotherhood are generally referred to as "Brotherists" or "Ikhwaniyyin". It's become a catch-all term for fundamentalists, really, almost on par with the much less deferential "Ali Abu-Lahia", "Bearded Ali". What is it with the extreme right, short hair, and long facial hair?

But I'm going offtopic. Thing is, with so many Wild Card elements, it can be really tough brokering peace. And enforcing internal discipline has its own many problems, especially in resistance/guerrilla/clandestine movements.

edited 13th Mar '14 2:59:51 PM by TheHandle

People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it.
 634 Achaemenid, Thu, 13th Mar '14 2:59:29 PM from Mitakihara Town, Copenhagen Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Za naszą i waszą wolność
[up]

Well, they can't wear Sayyid Qutb's facial hair, can they? tongue

edited 13th Mar '14 3:01:02 PM by Achaemenid

 635 The Handle, Thu, 13th Mar '14 3:01:15 PM from Barcelona Relationship Status: In love with love
The Shiv of Reason
Lydia oh Lydia, she's such a pretty lady-ah, Lydia the taaaa-tooed lady!
People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it.
 636 Deviant Braeburn, Fri, 14th Mar '14 12:31:32 PM from Dysfunctional California
 637 Achaemenid, Fri, 14th Mar '14 12:38:00 PM from Mitakihara Town, Copenhagen Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Za naszą i waszą wolność
[up]

"You started it!"

"We did not start it!"

"Yes you did, you invaded Sinai!"
 638 Marq FJA, Fri, 14th Mar '14 9:17:41 PM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
Everyone thinks Mossad killed Arafat. Talk about Poisoning The Well.
Well, for all we know, it could've been that Mossad discreetly manipulated Mahmoud Dahlan into doing the dirty work for them without him realizing it.

... Or, alternatively, there's a third party that is neither Israeli nor Palestinian, but has vested interest in either the Palestinians falling into even more infighting then they already have now, fanning the already blazing fires of the Palestinian-Israeli feud, or even both, and deliberately set things up so that the most likely suspect for the assassination would not be them (whoever they are).
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 639 The Handle, Sat, 15th Mar '14 3:56:21 AM from Barcelona Relationship Status: In love with love
The Shiv of Reason
Even within Israel's secret service there must be lots of Interservice Rivalry, Jurisdiction Friction, Right Hand Versus Left Hand, We Are Struggling Together, and Gambit Pileup, among other Mind Screw elements. I'm sure there's not one single person who really knows everything that's going on. And every faction has their own idea on what's the nation (and their own) best interests.
People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it.
 640 Deviant Braeburn, Mon, 17th Mar '14 12:22:09 PM from Dysfunctional California
 641 Deviant Braeburn, Fri, 21st Mar '14 12:57:51 PM from Dysfunctional California
Wandering Jew
UN rights investigator accuses Israel of 'ethnic cleansing'.
Everything is Possible.

But some things are more Probable than others.
JEBAGEDDON 2016

 642 Marq FJA, Fri, 21st Mar '14 1:12:08 PM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
Some non-Israeli sources for the same story: International Business Times and the UN News Centre.

Interesting fact: Richard Falk, the guy whose statements these articles are talking about, is Jewish. There goes any attempts by the pro-Israeli lobby at accusing him of Anti-Jewismnote .

edited 21st Mar '14 1:14:52 PM by MarqFJA

Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 643 Achaemenid, Fri, 21st Mar '14 3:30:02 PM from Mitakihara Town, Copenhagen Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Za naszą i waszą wolność
[up]

There's not much point in quibbling about words with established meanings. The reason we use "anti-Semitism" for Jews is because, well, there has been so much Jew hatred - and to such unique extremes - that it needed it's own word. And sometimes attempts to erase the word can be attempts to erase the concept too. Also, Jewish people are not a hivemind. One Jew criticizing Israel is not significant.


"Ethnic cleansing" is a loaded term, but one which I think is ultimately appropriate here. Settlement building is self-destructive stupidity on the part of the settlers, and their actions will have wider - and possibly terminal - consequences for the survival of the Jewish state.
 644 Ogodei, Fri, 21st Mar '14 5:05:00 PM from Aberdale, AZ
finger on the button
[up] Indeed, because the more mangled they make the West Bank map, there comes a point where independence is no longer possible and then annexation (and accompanying integration) becomes the only outcome.

 645 Achaemenid, Fri, 21st Mar '14 5:20:00 PM from Mitakihara Town, Copenhagen Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Za naszą i waszą wolność
[up]

Well there's that; I imagine in such circumstances both push and pull factors would eventually lead to an exodus of Arabs from Palestine, with those remaining likely conducting some kind of domestic insurgency within Greater Israel, probably like Northern Ireland only ten times worse.

The thing is, a lot of the Israeli right's rhetoric is predicated on the idea that only a strong, assertive, and militarily dominant Israel can guarantee the security and continued existence of it's people. The Europeans tried to exterminate us, so the narrative goes, and as soon as we escaped the Arabs tried to destroy our country and they've never stopped. There's a kernel of truth in that, though it is an extremely simplistic view. The problem is, the mania with security and the Arab threat has left that constituency unable to envisage a route to security except through military strength. Unfortunately, such an approach is almost guaranteed to be ruinous for Israel in the long term.

The IDF is the finest military in the Middle East - possibly all Asia - and it can defeat any army the Arab states combined could put in the field (and has done, on numerous occasions, in the past). But there will come a time - in 50 years or 500 - when Israel finds the balance of power shifted, when it is weak and unable to defend itself. When that time comes, Israel will have to rely on the goodwill of it's neighbors; and it will not be able to do that if this conflict goes on.

This isn't necessarily to assign blame or find a bad guy - the Arabs have a lot to do with why the Israeli right thinks like this, and why pluralities will back them in Israeli elections - but to try and understand why Netanyahu's assertions that he is the only protector of the Jewish people are ultimately doing more to undermine their security that Hamas's shitty rockets ever could.

edited 21st Mar '14 5:28:12 PM by Achaemenid

 646 Radical Taoist, Fri, 21st Mar '14 8:18:50 PM from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
There goes any attempts by the pro-Israeli lobby at accusing him of Anti-Jewism
Haven't you followed their responses to Noam Chomsky? "Self-hating" is the slur of choice.
 647 Marq FJA, Sat, 22nd Mar '14 6:26:40 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
No, but from what I read of the guy on Wikipedia, I'm starting to like him. Sane and rational head on his shoulders, that's for certain.

4 Palestinians killed in clash with Israeli army. "The violence came amid a recent spike in clashes in the West Bank that could complicate the already troubled peace efforts as the sides near an April deadline set under U.S.-sponsored talks."

... Ugh, when are we going to get an independent UN with its own Army that can enforce a complete ceasefire in the region?

edited 22nd Mar '14 6:28:39 AM by MarqFJA

Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 648 joesolo, Sat, 22nd Mar '14 6:43:36 AM Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
Somewhere around never, because it's a tool for interactions between nations? Whod decide where to send those forces?
I am going to shove the sunshine so far up where the sun don't shine that you will vomit nothing but warm summer days -Belkar
 649 Tuefel Hunden IV, Sat, 22nd Mar '14 7:05:31 AM from Wandering. Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchmen of the Apocalypse
Part of what makes the UN palatable is that it doesn't have its own standing army but is instead comprised of volunteer forces from participating nations. A UN that could do as it pleased would be little different then first world nations doing the same thing. Sooner rather then later it would abuse its status.

Now if you meant a international force enforcing a negotiated ceasefire that is still feasible. And like Joe noted who would decided how a standing UN army would be used? The current structure would leave any such body largely impotent and useless.

edited 22nd Mar '14 7:06:46 AM by TuefelHundenIV

"Who watches the watchmen?"
 650 Greenmantle, Sat, 22nd Mar '14 7:10:52 AM from Britannia Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Marking Time
[up][up] And who are the members loyal to? And what's to stop it becoming an Army of Thieves and Whores?

edited 22nd Mar '14 7:11:01 AM by Greenmantle

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