Misused (new crowner 12/2/13): Necessary Drawback

You have a point, it doesn't flow very well. That's why I prefer "ironclad".

edited 27th Oct '13 7:15:48 AM by shiro_okami

The best name, currently, is Damage Sponge, and that's at 9:7

Need more names/votes to find the right words for this trope, folks!

I'm starting to think that the "perfect" name that we've been looking for (something that is witty, clearly describes both high defense and low offense, and can be used as a noun like Glass Cannon) might simply not exist. We've got some ideas here that cover some of those requirements; which of them could be most easily sacrificed?

The easiest to sacrifice is "witty." That's why I continue to be behind Durable Weakling. It's boring, but it's short, simple, clear (if you're not being pedantic about the definition of "weakling" and refusing to acknowledge that the adjective "durable" obviously modifies it), and can be used as a noun.

edited 30th Oct '13 4:23:36 PM by hbi2k

We're here to find a name we like, not to grudgingly settle on a subpar name. That means we don't compromise just to get the thread over with. "Well, we have to rename it to something" is the wrong attitude. It disproportionally favors newer options, even if they're worse than older ones (because the older ones will still have the downvotes from when we were being picky). And it invariably ends up throwing "witty" under the bus.

Invalidating a crowner with 300+ votes by changing the criteria is a terrible idea. Let's not relax our standards for expedience's sake.

edited 30th Oct '13 5:16:51 PM by troacctid

I think the problem here is the assumption that it "needs the right words". Why not just call it higher defenses than offenses? No chance of misunderstanding that. On the other hand, why is damage sponge winning a bad thing? What is it not creative enough, alliterative enough?, not thematically related to glass cannon enough?

edited 1st Nov '13 11:44:39 AM by Cider

Damage Sponge doesn't really cover the 'lack of offense' part. Although it could still probably be serviceable despite that.

I think the main complaint about that one is it implies "lots of Hit Points" more than "lots of defense," as seen on Damage-Sponge Boss. (Cuz a sponge absorbs damage and doesn't bother trying to block it.) And yeah, it also doesn't really have the "low offense" part. Those are essentially the same problems we have with the current title, so I don't see it being more than a lateral move.

edited 1st Nov '13 10:01:19 PM by troacctid

if anything I think Stone Wall is better than Damage Sponge if they're both imperfect, because it implies defense/blocking/being impervious as opposed to HP/just bouncing back/absorbing .

We're back to the issue of Defense and Evasion looking the same on paper, but having a very different narrative component. Toughness and Endurance fit the trope better than Armour Class and Defense Stat.

Yeah, "dodge tanks" in particular are really ambiguous if you go by mechanics (especially in stuff like D&D where both armour and agility grant the same kind of defence). Going narratively they're always Fragile Speedster.

edited 2nd Nov '13 6:34:13 AM by Prime32

Damage sponge existed before the TV Tropes page, and all before hit points were assigned to figures in table top games. A sponge has little to no offense, at a macroscopic level. Being a soft bodied filter feeder and all, any damage it does to anything thing is going to be insignificant short term but its lack of vital organs does make pounding, squeezing or stabbing it not too effective and it is squishy besides this.

Of course, you would not have to think about any of these things if you just called it what it is, Higher Defenses Than Offenses.

Wait, that doesn't make any sense. If that's what the trope implies, than it actually would make a good name, because the trope is only about just absorbing damage and has nothing to do with blocking. I think having the trope refer to blocking and absorbing damage is a bad idea. If you introduce "blocking", the trope is no longer about "durability/toughness".

edited 3rd Nov '13 3:39:13 PM by shiro_okami

That's why the last time this issue came up (page 16), I was pointing out that "Defense, I mentioned, isn't strictly the same as durability. I'd be more comfortable with Offense, Durability, and Speed."

Which was a restatement of my earlier write-up: Page 10, post 229

• How effective a character can endure physical stress. Typically this refers to properties that reduce or ignore damage. It is not unusual for a game or story to reduce incoming damage (such as armor or natural toughness) or allow a character to suffer more damage before dying (such as high HP and/or quick HP regeneration). The properties that allow a character to avoid incoming attacks altogether are usually considered part of Attribute #3. Cases where game systems in which armor increases the enemy chance to miss, instead of reducing damage directly can be problematic. Remember that the attributes are defined by the character's actions, not the game rules. The term is best defined as a character's overall ability to withstand sustained attack.

I was not equivocating the two. I was simply questioning whether you were referring the broad concept of defense itself or a durability as a specific type of defense. Anyway, the real mistake I made was considering dodging a type of defense. I decided to double-check the meaning and found out dodging actually doesn't count as defense. Anyway, it makes my assumption a moot point.

Except your research has misinformed you. You were right to check if I meant that two were equivalent. I've been a Dungeons and Dragons nerd for over two editions, and watching the third develop. The numbers labeled "Defense" all work under the evasion definition, and which edition you play determines how many work under the dodging narrative.

Which is why the issue will be raised again and again.

This is why I think game rules should be completely disregarded when it comes to definitions. The only thing I use to define what "defense", "durability", and "dodging" mean is the dictionary. For me, there is no issue.

But "established use" trump personal definitions.

edited 3rd Nov '13 6:11:40 PM by crazysamaritan

Sorry, I didn't mean blocking as in moving to oppose the attack like some kind of martial arts thing. I meant blocking as in, like, wearing armor that turns away their blows. Like, you know how when you punch a sponge, it takes the hit and then squishes itself back into place, but when you punch a wall, it just doesn't take any damage at all. It's compatible with the trope's meaning, but it's not the sort of tone this trope wants.

And none of that has anything to do with numbers.

edited 6th Nov '13 9:01:57 PM by troacctid

oh wow, i didn't mean for people to pick apart word choice.

I can't tell if we're more concerned with dictionary definitions, preexisting trope and or media definitions, context, or numerical stats anymore. And i doubt you;l find any term that encompasses all four of those.

All i meant is that intuitively when I think defense I think more in terms of deflecting damage than literally absorbing damage. In terms of numerical stats what i want that to translate into is high defense, as opposed to high HP. If you have High defense damage is deflected, blocked, you are impervious (something stiff like a Stone Wall, armor, or shield). if you have high HP you still get hurt as much as anyone else, but you can absorb the damage and bounce back because you can just take a lot more (something soft like a Damage Sponge, cushion, or blubber on large animals).

but in terms of simply more overall defensive based skill set they can be taken to be the same thing. either way it means you have a better chance of outlasting your opponent because even if their attacks connect, you won't go down easily.

Evasive Tanks are Fragile Speedsters in terms of numerical stats. If an attack connects they go down easily. Being both an evasive tank and an HP/Defense tank at the same time is superfluous and examples are very few and far between.

However defensive based fighting styles in real life often depend on evasion and range, keeping your opponent at arms length, or parrying because there only so much natural defense muscle tone or fat will do for you against a weapon, unless you have extra protection like stiff armor or soft padded clothes.

edited 4th Nov '13 12:07:59 AM by acrobox

Mechanically, in a game like D&D, one would be represented with a high hit point pool, and the other would have a high evasive stat. Why? Because the "defensive stat" works on the principle of evasion. So trying to determine if the character has the attribute of a Stone Wall based on their numbers is wrong.

So are we supposed to be going by D&D definitions then?

I like Damage Sponge. It implies that they "absorb" damage, and "absorb" is vague enough to be any of the relevant defensive characteristics we care about. Blocking something with a shield or armor is just as "absorbent" as simply taking the hit and not caring. Maybe this is just my gaming background speaking though.

It is of course obvious that sponges are not inherently threatening.

edited 4th Nov '13 1:00:47 PM by Clarste

I think using the D&D meaning of "high defense, low attack" would put The Juggernaut and Nightcrawler under this trope, and exclude The Blob.

That's why being precise in word choice is important. I want "defense" to mean "endure hits", not "high defense stat". I think Damage Sponge characterizes the idea of a highly armoured warrior who deflects attacks (because the attack still hits them) better than Higher Defenses Than Offenses, which is likely to attract misuse in the form of characters like Nightcrawler and Kitty Pride, because they can completely avoid the attack.

I also like Shield Warrior, Durable Weakling, All Bark And No Bite, and a number of other abstracted names.

edited 4th Nov '13 1:17:46 PM by crazysamaritan

I never said anything about personal definitions. I referred to the dictionary, which refers to universal definitions. So I don't understand what your comment has to do with anything.

I disagree with you. Even "high HP" counts as a form of defense. 'Blocking' means "obstructing through the use of an obstacle", such as using a shield, weapon, or an arm to deflect an attack, thus preventing the attack from reaching its intended target and causing any real damage. When I think of durability, I think of someone who can take/absorb damage to any part of their body and still keep going, not someone who can prevent themselves from taking any damage in the first place. (An armored warrior is sort of half-and-half; while armor could be considered an obstacle, the body inside still feels the force of attacks, just spread over a larger area.) You can't endure a stress or tough it out if you block or deflect it from reaching you in the first place. Right now, the defensive attribute of the tropes refers to durability and toughness, so changing it to your concept of defense would change the actual meaning of the tropes.

edited 4th Nov '13 7:26:02 PM by shiro_okami