Needs Help: Five Races

Could we discuss how these are categorised? I'm kind of confused, and the descriptions seem to be kind of confused as well. And there's kind of a mismatch between it and its Evil Counterpart, the Fantasy Axis of Evil.

Err. Here.

It seems problematic that 'Fairy' and 'High Men' are actual names of races, not adjectives like the others. But does anyone else think the examples are weird? Gods aren't usually a race, so both the examples for 'High Men' overlap with either 'Fairy' or 'Mundane'. Since their counterpart is the Dark Elf, it makes sense that Elves would be the conventional form, leaving Fairies as the conventional example of the 'Fairy' race (logical!). But the descriptions talk about how 'stout' and 'fairy' usually contrast in terms of 'masculine' and 'feminine'... which is only really true for Elves Versus Dwarves.

What's going on?

I don't see "gods aren't a race". They can be, depending on the setting; consider Olympians, Valar, Vanir, Maiar, Oyaresu, Asgardians, and so on and so forth. A distinct group of people with defined differences from humanity; what marks the High Men as a group is that they're simply better. And unlike Fairy (addressed below) I have never seen High Men treated as a noun, and its name as group doesn't confuse me any.

"Fairy" is both a noun for the race and a classification of races; would it bother you any less if that category was called "Fay" instead? An elf is a kind of fairy; so are gnomes, brownies, cu sidhe, banshees, and most youkai.

Given its actual role, Mystic is probably a better name for the group since the small-person-with-wings style fairies are more likely Cute and that's the first kind to leap to mind from the use of the word "fairy" for many people.

...okay, that's fair enough. I guess they didn't really occur to me, though, because gods don't really fill that niche in any works I've read that use Five Races. (Also: Valar, Maiar, and Oyaresu are not races, just categories of being or Cosmic Entities. Oyaresu in particular don't breed with each other, and I'm pretty sure the same is true of the other two.)

I get the idea behind the name, but High Men is inherently a noun (and I think I recall that it's specifically an epithet given to the Numenoreans). If it were an adjective it would just be 'High'. Which is probably not a very good name. 'Grand' or 'Noble' kind of gets at the same idea.

'Fay' would in fact bother me less, because even though I have seen it used as a noun ('the Fay', Morgana le Fay, &c) it's used that way much less commonly than 'Fairy'. But I agree that 'Mystic' would be even better - the idea is that this group are the most magical or embody nature in some way. Folklore elves and fairies fit in this category, but not the versions that sprang up in modern fantasy.

Yeah, I realized after posting that High Men is always a noun, but I meant I'd never seen it used as a name, only as the classification on this page. Then I forgot that there's an Edit button, so you can consider that wording redacted.

Ah, heh. Got it.

I just checked, and my memory was correct! Even aside from that, though, it would be more elegant if it matched the others.

What's going on is that this supposed trope is a complete dog's breakfast. It reminds me of Five-Man Band, except that Five-Man Band is demonstrably a real trope at its core that just spiralled out of control with rampant shoehorning. This is all shoehorning without the real trope. The whole page should be burnt to the ground and its ashes spread to the four winds.

..but yeah, the adjective/noun thing is annoying too.

"Dog's breakfast"? That's a new one.

I think there is an underlying trope here, though I agree that it's pretty well-buried. It's kind of related to Faction Calculus... If you have only a few races, they're likely to fit in the mold of Humans (mundane) - Elves (grand) - Dwarves (stout); if you add one or two more, they will probably be Hobbits (cute) and Ents (mystical/weird). And beyond that you start getting into the territory of Loads and Loads of Races.

Bump?

Me, I see it about the same way, except I usually expect that if you have three races you get a trio of either humans with dwarves focused on physical/combat strength and elves focused on magic or dwarves that are strong and slow with elves that are fast and weak (elves only being considered "high men" in fluff text). Then if you add a fourth, it is a small race that takes the unused elf niche - magical gnomes/fairies or speedy halflings (not Cute for the sake of being cute, more an incidental thing). If you add more, things start getting weird.

Maybe that's just how I always see it because I'm such a gamist at heart.

I was going to say that that's a very RPG way of looking at it. :P I was making the comparison to Faction Calculus more about how it tries to establish distinct playstyles that nonetheless interact with each other in interesting and enjoyable ways, and thinking in terms of choosing races and cultures that produce social interactions that are similarly distinct, interesting, and enjoyable.

Would it be correct to assume that Tropes Are Flexible apply to the makeup and "(stereo)typical" characteristics of the trope's quintent of races — i.e. it doesn't have to be the typical Stout—Fairy—Mundane—High Man—Cute ensemble? I mean, take Final Fantasy XIV's quintent of races for example; beyond the Hyur, the Roegadyn, and the Lalafell being obvious fits for Mundane, Stout, and Cute, it's not so easy to classify the two other races. Are the elf-like Elezen the High Man or the Fairy? And what about the Cat Girl race, the Miqo'te?

edited 15th Aug '14 7:10:51 PM by MarqFJA

Yeah, I am not sure this is really a trope. Elves/ Dwarves/ Humans is common enough, but I am not sure there is a 5 race set-up that is really that clear-cut and common.

I mean the basic races in D and D do not even fit and D and D is as cliched as you can get.

Yeah, this list seems like a shoehorning, especially apparent when they can't even decide what race belongs to which groupings (humans and elves are listed under two).

And honestly, I don't actually see this quintile set-up being used that often either. When five races do exist in fantasy settings, the division is more like a Three Plus Two anyway — the three being: the Jack of All Stats, the Physically oriented (dwarf, orc, beast, etc) and the Magically oriented (elves, fairies, etc); while the other two are usually less clear-cut, and have more variations in their Competitive Balance.

1. Do note that the list is explicitly qualified with "usually", meaning that it acknowledges that it's not universal.

2. The basic races in D&D do fit, actually — at least in the earlier editions, that is.

3. Three Plus Two for the "main" set of races in a setting, with a collection of common/typical but not set-in-stone characteristics distinguishing them from each other, associated seems pretty tropable IMO.

Human, Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, Half-Orc, Half-Elf. Looks like two more than five to me. Even if you want to toss out half-elf for just being elf+human, you cannot discount half-orc which is a unique race from the others.

The actual "brute" race is the Orc (and its endless goblinoid variants) which also fits into the "ugly = evil" stereotype that's important to Five Races. The Half-Human Hybrid variants are there to provide more PC options; they don't fundamentally change the archetype.

The real problem is that gnomes don't fit the Tolkienesque pattern. A "cute", inquisitive, whimsically technological race is not a part of the Five Races trope.

edited 20th Aug '14 11:24:55 AM by Fighteer

But according to the D&D entry, Cute is covered by the Halflings, whereas the Gnomes are in the Fairy category. Meanwhile, the LOTR entry has two potential lineups, each having a different race as the Fairy: The Ents in one, and the Elves in another (being the High Men in the first lineup).

Er... Elves are always the "fairy" race. Ents aren't really included in the "standard Tolkien races" in most recountings. I mean, if you count all the sapient races in Tolkien's mythology, not just the major ones, you end up with a lot more than five — although, in fairness, a lot of those are subraces.

The lineup is: Humans = generic, Elves = fairy, Hobbits = cute, Orcs = ugly, Dwarves = stout

edited 20th Aug '14 12:52:14 PM by Fighteer

^ Now, I see that pattern used plenty enough, it is the cute/ fairy/ man/ high man/ stout thing that that seems ridiculous to me. I do not think it is actually used that often and most of the examples are shoehorning. Look at this:

• Teen Titans fits the five regular cast members:
  • Stout: Cyborg, not exactly a dwarf, but cybernetically enhanced
  • Fairy/Elf: Raven, in a dark-elf way.
  • Mundane: Robin, the non-powered member.
  • High Men: Starfire, human-like, but much more powerful.
  • The Cute: Beast Boy, for certain definitions of "cute".

Not races

• My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic refuses to fit into this well. All of the pony types would be considered Cute/fairies, but show traits of the other typings, while at the same time, non-pony races would be a better fit for the other 4 archetypes. This section will list which races could fit where.
  • Stout: Pegasus used to be a Proud Warrior Race before the founding of Equestria and are now doing jobs such as weather managing while Earth ponies develop great physical strength, and their magic makes them superior farmers.
  • Fairy: Unicorns are a Witch Species and each one can use magic associated with his/her special skill. They also have hints of Proud Scholar Race. All of the pony types would be considered this relative to non-ponies.
  • Mundane: Earth ponies lack the overt magic and flight that the other races have, but they can grow crops better than the others, and some develop vast physical strength. Pegasus and Unicorns may also fulfill these roles as well.
  • High Men: Alicorns have both flight and magic; the more powerful ones are Physical Gods able to move the sun and moon, though their rareness might preclude them from being considered an actual race in and of themselves.^note A grand total of four have appeared onscreen, and two were magically created.
  • The Cute: All of the ponies are really, really, cute.

Shoehorning

• Avatar: The Last Airbender:
  • Earth Kingdom as Stout, though they could easily count as Mundane due to their diversity and larger population.
  • Spirit World as Fairy.
  • Fire Nation as Mundane. The Legend of Korra also adds Republic City.
  • Air Nomads as High Men, particularly because they're all Airbenders. Bonus points for being nearly extinct at the time of the series.
  • Water Tribe as Cute, for the underestimated (at least at the beginning of Book One) and Closer to Earth parts.

The hell is this?

• Fairly Oddparents actually fits this if you include the alien races. Granted, some are more important than others, but...
  • Mundane: Humans, of course.
  • Fairy: The magical races (Fairies, Anti-Fairies, Pixies, Genies, etc.)
  • High Men: The denizens of Wonder World, Turbo Thunder's world, who all had superpowers.
  • Stout: Boudacians, Princess Mandie's race. If Mandie (and the arranged military alliance with Yugopotamia)is any indication, they seem to be a Proud Warrior Race.
  • Cute: The Gigglepies. Sickeningly so, intentionally.
  • Always Chaotic Evil: Though this can also apply to the Gigglepies, this is the Yugopotamian's hat.

Trying to fit superhero dudes into a mold meant for elves

• Fraggle Rock has a glancing acquaintance with this Trope, as the series centers around a fantasy ecosystem that intertwines four different races (often without any of them being aware of it). Arguably, the Silly Creatures (i.e. us) are Mundanes, the Doozers are Stouts, the Gorgs are parodies of High Men, and the Fraggles themselves are Cute with Fairy tendencies.

I am having Five-Man Band shoehorning flashbacks

• Game Mod Red Alert 3 Paradox:
  • Cute: Design-wise, Empire of the Rising Sun, who overlap with Fairy by having Psychic Powers.
  • Fairy: Allied Nations, with their almost magical technology.
  • High Men: Order of the Talon fit this the most, when they are not scheming nations against each other.
  • Mundane: Allied Reservists, International Inc.
  • Stout: Confederate Revolutionairies, but they also subvert it by using dirty tactics and stealth.

another one not about races

• In Halo the various client races of the Covenant can be fit into these groups.
  • Grunts - the cute race
  • Jackals - the mundane race
  • Brutes - the stout race
  • Elites - the High Men
  • Engineers - the fairy race (on account of their almost magical skill in repairing almost anything)
  • Drones are arguably stout given their mechanical skill and propensity to solve non-mechanical problems with violence

Engineers are the fairly race wat

• Net Hack doesn't follow the standard exactly:
  • Humans are more High Men than Mundane: strong and balanced, can be any role (class), and are the only race than can choose their alignment. Their only major disadvantage is that without infravision, they are blind in the dark.
  • Dwarves are Stout to a tee: strong and tough, but lacking in mental faculties and poor at spellcasting.
  • Elves are the archetypical Faeries: very intelligent and wise, but physically frail. Elven weapons and armor are made of wood and leather instead of iron, and future versions may penalize elven characters who wield iron weapons.
  • Gnomes are basically Elves Lite: not as smart, but fairly bright and reasonably sturdy, with an affinity for gems.
  • Orcs are as stupid as dwarves and no stronger than gnomes, and hated by most other sentient races. Their only saving graces are their innate poison resistance and that cannibalism is natural to them.

oh hey funny how this is nothing like the trope definition but exactly like the races as outlined above

• Earthbound, despite ostensibly being set in modern-day Eagle Land, manages to pull this off, mostly.
  • The Humans are, of course, the Humans. (Captain Obvious to the rescue!) However, due to their mundanity, and the way some of them value hard work, they may well also fill the Stout role.
  • The Mr. Saturns are the Fairies. They're weird and quirky, and they may have magical powers. Maybe. They're an entire race of Cloud Cuckoolanders, so it's hard to tell.
  • The Starmen are the High Men. They have advanced psionic powers, and they come from another realm. While their powers are incredible, they're also Giygas' troopers, and therefore kind of, uh, evil.

oh my goodness how much shoehorning can you doooooo

Bleh, man, I really dislike these sorts of tropes, people shove so much unrelated stuff in them they become completely meaningless and there is always a mess of incorrect indentation and justifying edits and ""arguably"" blah blah.

edited 20th Aug '14 2:38:16 PM by rexpensive

So in other words, we need to take this to TRS for fixing, right?

Sounds like it does need to go to TRS, yes. I'll move it over.

I'm not sure what's being suggested here. Pruning bad examples doesn't require a TRS thread, and I don't see anyone arguing for a redefinition or rename. Is there anything to do here beyond removing misuse?

The problem here is twofold, as I see it: 1) The definition is not precise enough to avoid easy Trope Decay (what exactly is this trope supposed to be about, anyway? I'm getting conflicting signals here), and 2) we may be missing a supertrope for the more general concept of fantasy settings having a tendency to have the same set number of "main" races — either a trio along the lines of Human-Elves-Dwarves, or an expanded Three Plus Two version where the two extra races are not quite universal in concept but not exactly always-different.

edited 26th Aug '14 4:11:35 AM by MarqFJA

I am not convinced this is a trope at all, this is a supposed "pattern" I have seen in maybe 2 works. Almost all the examples look like shoehorning to me.

YMMV on that, but regardless I think a trope about human/dwarf/elf plus two more would be a good idea. That is much more common.

Maybe we should retool it into a "fantasy race types" trope, instead of insisting that it be an exact group of five specific types? Maybe make it a supertrope or an index and spin off separate tropes for each of the race types. Either way, here's the types I see working:

• Mundane — The "average" race, usually humans or the next best thing. The standard by which other races are judged. Likely to be a Jack of All Stats (because, after all, Humans Are Average).
• Stout — A society of hardworking, industrious, and skilled artisans and craftsmen. On the less positive side, they're often stubborn, overly proud, and clannish as well. Likely to be a Mighty Glacier.
• High — An older and more refined civilization than the other races, likely Long-Lived or even The Ageless. Creators of wondrous art and keepers of immense amounts of knowledge, they have a tendency to be sort of pricks about it. Likely to be a Fragile Speedster or Squishy Wizard.
• Barbarian — A tribal and brutish culture that emphasizes strength and personal ability over all else. Probably less technologically savvy than other races, but don't expect that to keep them from being an effective fighting force.
• Crafty — A race that makes up for physical shortcomings with cleverness and skill. Weaker and often smaller than other races, they tend toward stealth and trickery in conflicts rather than more traditional warrior prowess. Often a Fragile Speedster or Glass Cannon.

And some examples from various works:

• Lord Of The Rings:
  • Mundane - humans
  • Stout - dwarves
  • High - elves
  • Barbarian - orcs
  • Crafty - hobbits
• Mass Effect:
  • Mundane - humans
  • Stout - turians
  • High - asari
  • Barbarian - krogan
  • Crafty - salarians
• World Of Warcraft (Alliance/Horde)
  • Mundane - humans/orcs
  • Stout - dwarves/tauren
  • High - night elves/blood elves
  • Barbarian - worgen/trolls
  • Crafty - gnomes/goblins
  • other (for sake of completeness) - draenei/forsaken
• Exalted
  • Mundane (relatively) - Dragonblooded
  • Stout - Alchemicals
  • High - Solars
  • Barbarian - Lunars
  • Crafty - Sidereals
• Shadowrun
  • Mundane - humans
  • Stout - dwarves
  • High - elves
  • Barbarian - orks, trolls
  • Crafty - none